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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Topic: No more ghost-editsPosted: October 28 2009 at 03:45 |
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What?
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 28 2009 at 03:44 |
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Thanks for the constructive discussion guys, I've no more to add just now.
As far as the discussion of illegal substances is concerned, absolutely. This is where our collaborators have a special responsibility. There has not been one report of that thread to the admin team via the report button.
(Edit - and having just visited it, it looks OK) Edited by Easy Livin - October 28 2009 at 03:47 |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 21:19 |
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I'm not accusing you of anything, and the point is why should you change Rob's thread? As the person making the change to someone else, the burden of proof is on you. I don't think adding Gentle Giant is any better or worse because anybody who knows about Gentle Giant will recognize it, and someone who doesn't isn't going to vote in the poll anyway. As for reasons to want it as intended, The Power and the Glory is snappier and shorter, making the forum easier to browse for the 99% of us who are aware of famous bands' album titles.
And I don't see why adding unnecessary words is a good use of your time. You could, for example, be removing the blatant discussion of illegal substances in the Your Vices thread.
Edited by Henry Plainview - October 27 2009 at 21:33 |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 17:53 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66607 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:28 |
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Take it for what it is worth, but I'm sure that the admin that changed your thread title was trying to clarify that you were providing a list of favorite bands, versus providing a list of favorite vegetables. In your opening post you say that these are some of your favorite bands that you have been listening to recently, so a more appropriate title change may have referenced that these were recent listened to bands, versus overall favorite bands. I'm not saying that the change was necessary, but I also don't think it is a big deal that a change to the title was made. Certainly would have been worse if the title had been changed pursuant to your previous post or if it had been changed to "Rushfan4 is a moron".  Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:30 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:27 |
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It isn't that huge of a deal. If the answer is no, fine.
By the way, people are assuming I meant the secondary definition of sinister, where in fact I meant the first- ominous or baleful. I am not insinuating that Bob, Dean, et al are evil or wicked. I am saying that this situation indicates a power that runs unchecked (theoretically, someone can change a thread title to "rushfan4 is a Moron" and no one would know who did it). Remember, when a thread title is changed without an admin saying he changed it, it looks like those are the OP's words. On more than one occasion a thread title was changed to something that was not more helpful than the original (and in Alex's case, just plain inaccurate). But anyway, you see I have not changed my poll's title back to the original because it was explained to me (elsewhere and after the fact by non-admins) that having the band name would be helpful for the search engine and artist page. For the fifth time, I don't mind such edits that improve the functionality of the site- I would just like a friendly post or something saying "Hi, I changed your thread title so it pops up in the search engine." That would take all of ten seconds. But again, if the answer is no, no big deal. I certainly won't lose sleep over such a minor annoyance. |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:20 |
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I can understand that with Robert's thread, but what about ones where that function doesn't make any difference anyway? (like the one I posted, or other polls with more than several bands in them) |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66607 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:14 |
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We already discussed one reason for making the change that was made to Rob's title yesterday in the SR, so I am not going to repeat that discussion. Another reason why that change was useful is for when forum users do searches in the forums. Either they remember seeing a Gentle Giant thread, or they want to create a Gentle Giant thread. If that person does a search on Gentle Giant, Rob's thread isn't going to come up. With the current title, it will come up in a search. (Yes, I realize the original title change to GG would not have helped with the search function, but the current thread title is far better for site and user purposes). Maybe it will prevent one newbie from re-posting a "favorite Gentle Giant song from the Power and the Glory" poll. Not likely, but maybe. Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:15 |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:09 |
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Oh, I know it's not sinister--nor am I making it out to be sinister (it's not like they changed the title to "Your Favorite of an Arsehole's Favorites" or something.  I just think it's frustrating to have your post edited for no particularly good reason and without the little message showing up in the post (or at least some sort of notification as to why my post was edited). Plus, I echo Drew's sentiments exactly:
"This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up
something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his
liking. The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful
and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent
ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then
change it and tell him or something)." What's the point anyway? Edited by MovingPictures07 - October 27 2009 at 16:10 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66607 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:04 |
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As Bob said though, the change that was made was not one that was a sinister change the way that you are making it out to be. Clearly, you should have come up with a more creative title than "Your Favorite".
 The admin who edited the title was only trying to help. Of course in this instance, the help resulted in an incorrect title.
As far as the being notified, according to Bob's post, when an admin edits a title it does not automatically provide the message that it was edited, like it does when an admin edits a post. Honestly, there are far more interesting things and important things in the world to have a coronary over other than an admin trying to make a thread title be more relevant. Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:06 |
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008 Location: Beasty Heart Status: Offline Points: 32181 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:59 |
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This isn't the only case of ghost editing. I also had my poll edited without my consent just recently, and it wasn't the first time.
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62282 That's the thread. It was changed from "Your Favorite?" to "Your Favorite of my favourite bands". When I saw the edit, I changed it back immediately. 1. That's not what I'm saying in my first post at all. 2. It doesn't even assist anyone who would take an extra 2 seconds of their time to click the poll to see which bands are included (clearly me asking "your favorite" entails a list of bands and that a person chooses their favorite of the ones listed. What really bugs me is that the changes aren't for the good of the forum at all---the only case I could see for admin editing is if someone is clearly violating the rules. If our own polls suffer because someone doesn't know that the Power and the Glory is an album by Gentle Giant, then should those people even be voting in the first place? And it only takes another 2 seconds to click the poll and see what Robert or anyone else is talking about. Not only that, but I have never been notified. If I had been, that would be a totally different story. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:49 |
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There's certainly nothing sinister about our actions. The admin team are first and foremost members like everyone else, despite some of the implications made in this thread, our only motivation is the good of the site.
This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.
I am trying to understand whether there is general acceptance that the better the thread title, the more helpful it is to the members.
The over-riding challenge the admin team face is managing our time. Of course we would like to do lots more, but like everyone else, we have real lives too. People demand that we do this or do that, but at the end of the day, we have to do as much as we can within our own time constraints.
Getting back to the point here, I perceive than a few people are concerned about members not being advised when thread titles are changed. What we often find when we do tell people what we have done is that they think they are being told off. A low key approach seems to work best for the vast majority. Once again, we can't win though. If we post a message in the thread saying we have changed the title, it looks like we are calling out the thread starter. If we send a PM, the others posting in this thread to object to the thread starter not being advised will still not know that we have advised them.
I am now unclear about whether there is an acceptance that thread titles can sometimes be improved to help the membership as a whole. There is of course a limitation on the space available in the title, but can someone explain why they do not want the members to get the best possible indication from the title as to what the thread is about? Or is there now acceptance by most that thread titles can sometimes be more helpful than the one they are given at birth.
Finally, I really do find it soul destroying when derogatory remarks are made about the admin team as part of the responses. I'll be happy to continue this discussion with those who post in a friendly way (RF4 etc.), but will avoid posts which are hurtful or accusatory.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:40 |
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I thought it was pretty clear it was about Gentle Giant when he named it "The Power and the Glory". If somebody doesn't know that, there are any number of places one could discover that fact, including the thread itself. Rob should not be obligated to make sure that everything he says is completely clear to somebody who just stumbled off the Miley Cyrus forums because if somebody who has never heard of Gentle Giant before, isn't it his loss that nobody read his thread, not yours?
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 14:27 |
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This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his liking.
The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then change it and tell him or something). Edited by stonebeard - October 27 2009 at 14:29 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 14:00 |
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The original change did not say "Gentle Giant." It said "The Power & the Glory (GG)," which as far as I can tell, doesn't help new folks navigate any better either. I really am only asking to be notified of changes to thread titles or posts. Just a short note- could be a quick post in the thread really. I don't think the anonymity is necessary, and frankly, I think it's a tad sinister. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:55 |
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In Epignosis case it seems he did object to the change, as he says he changed it back. It seems he did not want people to know from the title that the thread was about Gentle Giant.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:50 |
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I'm not interested in who is doing it or has done it in the past. Merely that future edits be identified. Bob: the problem lies not with the content of the edit, but the anonymity of the action. If the correction of the thread title is done to be helpful, a simple identification of who is doing the edit and why is all that is being asked here, I think. And I'm sorry if you don't care for my tone, but I detected a certain amount of snarkiness in your initial reply, to be quite honest. Rob is not some n00b off the street - he's a respected collaborator on here; the least that could be done when editing his titles is to inform of it, though to be honest I don't see why his original title was really in need of correction, your explanation notwithstanding. |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66607 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:45 |
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I don't believe that there is a problem with the change to the title so much, as the fact that the title was changed without a message to the original poster, or with the note that the post was edited by administrator x. If the post says that the post was edited by Easy Livin or Dean, the poster can at least respond to that administrator with their point of view for why they posted what they did. When the thread is "ghost edited", there is noone for the poster to respond to. I believe that at least in this instance the lack of communication from the editor is why some forum members are upset. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:40 |
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Oi! Less of the "You (collective)"! ... It's not me. I only correct spelling errors in titles. |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 27 2009 at 13:33 |
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Thread titles sometimes get changed to try to make it clearer for other members what they are about. Often, a news thread for example will simply show the band name. It looks much better on the home page if it is shown as a headline.
In the case of "The power and the glory", many members may not know that it is about an album by Gentle Giant. Adding "Gentle Giant" to the thread name simply helps them to judge whether or not they are interested in it. What is the problem with adding such info to a thread title? With all the polls now being created, surely it is best to help people find the ones they might want to view.
As an aside, the underlying tone of some posts in this thread is disappointing and demotivating. Personally, I don't mind constructive criticism but I find the tone here to sometimes be less than friendly.
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| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
No more ghost-edits
Topic Options
Henry Plainview wrote:
(* Note: I'm careful to exclude from all this titles that actually violate forum rules on profanity, etc.; obviously those can and should be changed - but a small note indicating why would still be courteous, in my view)