Necrophagist, Yay or Nay?

Prog is an abbreviation of Progressive Rock (metal being a sub-category of rock, or evolution of rock so Progressive Metal is also considered Prog).  Progressive Jazz (as a style/ genre), for instance, was around before Progressive Rock, but is not included, though Progressive Jazz-Rock is (and of course jazz is a common element in various kinds of Prog).  Not all progressive music is Prog, and not all Prog is progressive.  It is easier for a clone/ heavily influenced by a Prog band than a really innovative band that is not that similar to other bands here.  Progressive as an adjective describes newness and moving forward, but Prog is a noun which can refer to a movement and styles/ genre (I don't think of it as a specific genre with subgenres, but like to think about approach).  It is important to differentiate progressive (adjective) from Prog (noun), but I value the progressive attribute in Prog (the expansion/ advancement of the rock genre... breaking or moving away from established conventions.  A reason why I appreciate the approach of Rock and Metal in Opposition bands which go against industry/ commercial conventions/ expectations).

Edited by Logan - October 18 2008 at 14:30

UMUR wrote: I´m sensing you have a hard time understanding the soul of extreme metal.   If you don´t think that Necrophagist approach to the genre is progressive. I don´t think you´ve heard much death metal. But you´re welcome to prove me wrong. You almost make me think you know less about metal than you claim too... if you really do know much about metal, you'll know many bands released tech death records many years before Necrophagist. Many of the earlier tech death bands were more jazz influenced than neo-classical influenced, that is correct. Necrophagist is getting the neo-classical side of tech death and refining it   By the way I forgot to ask you this question which I should have asked long before this discussion got going. Have you even heard Epitaph ? Really sat down and listened to that album from start to finnish ?   About Hawkwind and Pink Floyd. I love them both. Great bands and yes no bands really sounded like them before, but the same can be said about Necrophagist. They are an original band. Not just a clone of someone else like you seem to think. Their basic ideas are death metal related. Growling vocals, power chord and tremolo riffing, but it´s a matter of how it´s done that sets them apart from bands like Napalm Death ( well they actually only made one real death metal album but Harmony Corruption is a classic in the genre so I´ll mention them), Obituary, Malevolent Creation, Monstrosity, Entombed, Dismember, Benediction, Bolt Thrower and Bloodbath just to mention some of the most prolific. Again, Necrophagist are refining the genre, not defining it. Big difference.   None of the above mentioned bands are artists that I would suggest for addition to PA, but as I stated earlier there is a difference between old school death metal  and tech death metal. The technical playing and the use of elements from other genres ( Baroque like notes and runs, time signature changes) in the death metal genre makes them progressive IMO. Just because they don´t find their influences in classic seventies prog like Opeth or Enslaved don´t mean that bands like Necrophagist are not prog related. Necrophagist are prog related at absolute best, but even that is a stretch. Now I read a couple of your reviews and I see that you don´t even consider Meshuggah to be progressive????? I think that shows exactly how little you understand about metal. You seem to think and I quote from you Catch 33 review: Although a lot of thought has clearly gone into the details and subtle changes, the overall effect is of a single riff used for an excessive length of time, with some simple effects and death-metal vocals. I´m sorry but this is laughable. One single riff ??? I think a groundbreaking band like Meshuggah commands a bit more respect than that. Again I think it shows exactly what your feelings are towards tech metal. And by the way. Jens Kidman´s vocals are widely not considered to be death metal growls ( at least if you ask people who know anything about metal that is). Extreme distorted vocals yes but death metal growl no. This is the kind of nuance you´re missing when you say that that Necrophagist is not a progressive band ( not that we´re talking about vocals here, but it goes to show your lack of appreciation for detail). This last paragraph I can agree with, for the most part. I have listened to Meshuggah records over and over again, and Cert's analysis is way over simplified. Jens Kidman screams and shouts... far different from death growls. And you are right, ask anyone that knows the death metal scene well, and they tell you Kimdamn's vocals are vastly different from death growls.   There seems to be an agenda here that you don´t think any extreme metal belong here ? If that´s the case let´s drop this discussion because then our opinions simply differ too much and this discussion will be fruitless. I can´t convince you with my high school english anyway. I don´t think about music in such academic terms.

You see, it's almost as if you think it's a loss if Necrophagist don't get into PA.

Why does it seem to bother you?

Necrophagist are a great band, surely that is enough?
Even if they aren't prog, they are still widely discussed on heavy metal forum boards elsewhere.
They get a lot of recognition for what they do, because they are good at what they do, which is pure tech death metal, plain and simple.

It's not like it's any loss for Necrophagist either in terms of getting extra fans, because I know any intelligent metal fan is going to go over to heavy metal forum/discussion boards to find out about metal bands they don't know yet.
I know, because as one of those intelligent metal fans, I go to other sites to look for news/info on metal well before I come to PA, because quite simply there are far better resources for metal than PA (and no offence intended to PA).

Yeah I see that now. A lost conservative purist.

I´m sensing you have a hard time understanding the soul of extreme metal.

Technical playing is just one thing I consider progressive in Necrophagist music. I agree that technical playing is only an element in prog but compared to Ozzy Osbourne or any of the other artists you mention all members of Necrophagist are technically skilled. Besides I don´t hear Ozzy Osbourne or Van Halen playing with time signatures which is another thing I consider progressive. In fact I´m pretty sure everything they ever played were in 4/4 ( maybe with the odd exception).

UMUR wrote: My winky was a a good humoured tease. Nothing else. I of course respect your opinion even though it´s very different from mine.   If you look at my profile I think you´ll find that I have other interests than extreme metal.   Judas Priest. Hell Yeah finally we agree on something. I´m not a big fan but I love both Rocka Rolla and Sad Wings of Destiny and I think they deserve to be here in the prog-related or proto-prog catagory with Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath. Most of the rest of their output are a bit too macho leather raise your fists in the air metal for my taste. They´ve made lots of classic heavy metal songs I´ll aknowledge that though ( including Painkiller of course). I think there´s an active thread for Judas Priest inclusion already by the way.   Well it still comes down to this: Are Necrophagist worthy of inclusion on PA in the tech/ extreme prog metal catagory? This poll shows that it´s a break even and with so many nays it´s doubtful that it will ever happen. Too bad IMO. Honestly, the poll means jack sh*t and nearly always does. It was entirely meaningless in the Metallica debate and for many other bands too. Necrophagist are not worth of inclusion, not because of the poll, but because of their musical characteristics.   To Hughes who wrote:   I don't dispute that Muhammed Suiçmez isn't challenging. He would probably laugh at me if I tried to emulate his level of technique in front of him...my sweep picking sucks sh*t compared to his.But you don't explain what is "progressive" about his playing, you merely say IT IS.   I already explained that unlike you and Certif1ed I consider technical playing to be a progressive. I really can´t explain it better than that. So what level of technical playing qualifies as progressive you´ll probably ask? Hard to tell but Necrophagist has a couple of things going for them as I wrote in my first post that I consider progressive and should win them a place on PA. ( I´d much rather see Decapitated here though)

If technical playing was considered progressive, let's add Ozzy Osbourne's first two records with the brilliant Randy Rhoads at the helm, let's add Van Halen's rather simple hard rock records to the Archives too.

You do realize, if technical playing was enough to be considered progressive, PA would have thousands and thousands more artists who make music with no real connection to prog at all.
Let's see, we can add Joe Satriani according to your reasoning, Guthrie Govan, Shawn Lane, Megadeth, Greg Howe, Vinnie Moore, Malmsteen, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman,.. and the list would take me another 12 hours to compile, you get what I mean.

Technical playing is just an element of prog... and not even exclusive to prog at that.

UMUR wrote: Our opinions on what is progressive just differs from each other. As I stated before I think challenging ( mildly or obvious) music is progressive and that includes tech death metal like Necrophagist and Decapitated too.   "well no offense, but I don't think you're heard much very death metal at all."  I´m not sure if this is an offense, but I´ve listened to metal for the last twenty years. I believe I know a thing or two. Again it comes down to different opinions on what is progressive. Death metal comes in many forms and shapes and there´s a big diffence between the old school sound of bands like Obituary, Dismember and Cannibal Corpse and the more technical bands in the genre.   In regards to your statement that Muhammed Suiçmez is influenced by neo classical guitar heroes from the eighties like Yngwie rather than actual classical music, I fully agree, but that doesn´t mean that his playing isn´t challenging ( and in my world progressive).   Marty Friedman and Jason Becker´s Cacophony. Interesting band for sure. I have one of their albums, but their style never really excited me. I haven´t heard enough to evaluate if I think they would fit on PA though. I think that album ended up in the basement somehow.

I don't dispute that Muhammed Suiçmez isn't challenging. He would probably laugh at me if I tried to emulate his level of technique in front of him...my sweep picking sucks sh*t compared to his.
But you don't explain what is "progressive" about his playing, you merely say IT IS.

"Death metal comes in many forms and shapes and there´s a big diffence between the old school sound of bands like Obituary, Dismember and Cannibal Corpse and the more technical bands in the genre"

Correct, but bands like Necrophagist and Nile are just more modern sounding and technical, no more progressive in any way or form.

"Marty Friedman and Jason Becker´s Cacophony. Interesting band for sure. I have one of their albums, but their style never really excited me. I haven´t heard enough to evaluate if I think they would fit on PA though. I think that album ended up in the basement somehow"

Trust me, their music is more complex than anything any straight Tech Death band has to offer.
But I still wouldn't call Cacophony prog by any stretch of the imagination.

UMUR wrote: I don´t give much of a damn about who influenced Death ( of course I know both Seven Churches and Painkiller),

UMUR wrote: Necrophagist is ultra brutal death metal first and foremost, but that doesn´t mean they shouldn´t be on PA IMO. I think there are lots of elements on Epitaph that should earn them a place here. First of all because of the extreme virtuosity displayed. There are time signature changes here and there that is not ordinary on other death metal albums and of course the beautiful classical influenced sweeping guitar solos. I´ll admit that necrophagist is on the edge of what PA should include, but they are not much different from other tech death metal bands which are already included on this site: Martyr, Gorod and Death for instance.   And Logan: Cephalic Carnage. Oh Yeah why not. Great innovative band. They are most definitely progressive IMO.   Not so long ago I suggested Decapitated to the metal team and sadly they turned them down. That´s another tech death metal band I´m having a hard time understanding why people don´t want on PA.   Cryptopsy ? Anyone ?   The list is long and I can probably find a few more in a heartbeat, but it seems that the nay sayers have a hard time differentiating between ultra fast and brutal death metal like Suffocation and ultra fast and brutal tech death metal like Necrophagist. There´s a difference IMO and that difference should earn at least some of the most obvious tech death metal bands a place on PA.

I know all these bands fairly well.
The "classically influenced sweeping" is more the result of influence from 80s neo classical metal guitarists.
You see, while the original 80s innovators were genuinely influenced by Baroque music, many of today's neo-classical shredders like Muhammed Suiçmez, are influenced not by the baroque music, but the 80s neo-classical guitarists like Yngwie Malmsteen, and the effec that this has is that the actual classical influence is watered down.
Compositionally Necrophagist really are a death metal band, I don't really hear classical music at all in their music.
By the time it gets to this watered down level, the apparent "classical-ness" you hear is extremely "Superficial" at best and merely just uses baroque melodic motifs, arpeggiated lines (such as the sweep picked arpeggios), pedal point lines etc, without going as far as using complex classical forms, more complex musical devices like counterpoint, polyphony et al (techniques demonstrated in the band Cacophony).
And if you think time signature changes/use of odd time in death metal is odd... well no offense, but I don't think you're heard much very death metal at all.

Cryptopsy ? Anyone ?

Great band, but just a tech death band mate.
Technical complexity, sure, but no serious development happens compositionally at all.

"Not so long ago I suggested Decapitated to the metal team and sadly they turned them down. That´s another tech death metal band I´m having a hard time understanding why people don´t want on PA."

There you go... you yourself even listed a reason why they weren't add... they're tech death. Tech death does not=tech prog death.
Again, great band IMO, nothing against them, but hardly suited for this site.



Now that I mention Cacophony, they are clearly more progressive than any of the bands you listed... they used counterpoint, polyphony, were extremely innovative in the field of virtuosic electric guitar, at least had some compositional development to their songs as well.
But yet, I sure as hell wouldn't suggest them.

Think about it, if a band like Cacophony has no chance of being in PA... how can bands clearly less progressive and compostionally complex like Necrophagist, Decapitated ad Cryptopsy have a chance?

Cacophony had a fair amount of innovation going, but due to their lack of popularity, their influence on modern metal is not that great (but if you look around, they have their devoted fans and bands that are heavily influenced by them).








Edited by HughesJB4 - October 16 2008 at 01:06