What is Prog? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Author

Message

Topic Search

Topic Options

darkshade

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964

Topic: What is Prog?
Posted: August 25 2008 at 20:53

Frank Zappa

My Last.fm

Alberto Muñoz View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577

Posted: August 25 2008 at 12:50

Cert i have read your essay and is a really good One, kudos for that :

- Progressive Rock is an amalgam of eclectic rock music forms with an aesthetic intention, that is both composed and improvised, takes many of its influences from a wide variety of sources unrelated to Rock, and fuses these approaches together to create music that is distinctly unlike that of any of the source materials. -

I like this definition i think that it resolves the whole progressive definition.

Kestrel

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512

Posted: July 03 2008 at 04:59

Ha, a contest would be awesome! Kinda funny since I've been working on an essay about the subject for the past couple hours (nowhere near complete, of course, but at least it's a beginning) and some extra motivation would definitely be helpful. :)

M@X

Forum & Site Admin Group

Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4028

Posted: July 03 2008 at 00:21

Cert, about the essay contest , graded by members is a really nice idea.

Since I am not the perfect english to write a correct descirption for the contest, may I ask for help here ?
And also , not having much time theses days because of the SERVER-ISSUES.

I think it can be a great contest... we have great minds here !!!

Prog On !

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: July 01 2008 at 04:53

Atavachron wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

How?

presumably in a genetic sense.. and not all siblings and cousins are smarter, more talented or advanced than their predecessors

I'm having real problems decoding the DNA...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Atavachron View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250

Posted: July 01 2008 at 04:51

Certif1ed wrote:

How?

presumably in a genetic sense.. and not all siblings and cousins are smarter, more talented or advanced than their predecessors

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: July 01 2008 at 04:51

M@X wrote:

Ok guys, I really like what is going on here and would appreciate if it comes handy for the site and ultimately defining "progressive music" and the sub-genres and PA and the collaborators becoming the SOURCE for the true answers to what WAS and what IS "Prog Rock" music.

Wouldn't it be nice (I sound like the Beach Boys ?) if we could replace the WIKIpedia and others encyclopedia definition of PROG MUSIC.

I don't know how it's possible but let's continue this BLOG, open subject and find out where it'll lead.

Nice job Cerf !!!!! and others commenting , a nice progressive discussion.

I'm definitely up for using an essay as this site's definition - after all, I've worked on Wikipedia's definition, and the amount of behind-the-scenes wrangling that goes on, particularly by people that want to mention their favourite bands, is just ridiculous.

Personally, I think a site like this needs a definition which is easily digestible prose, tempered with a few choice bits and pieces about technical things - not a dictionary definition (which, let's face it, ain't gonna happen).

I like your earlier idea of a competition - if people submitted essays on the subject, then the rest of the members could vote for their favourite, which I think is the fairest way - it means the fans get to choose what defines their favourite music.

Maybe set a deadline, and a prize of a night out with Tony R?

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: July 01 2008 at 04:45

russellk wrote:

I just explained it, Certif1ed. It is retro-prog, an example of a modern band evoking the classic prog era. It may or may not be good at what it is, but that's not the issue.

I didn't follow your initial explanation... sorry.

It doesn't evoke the classic prog era to me at all - it evokes the modern metal era, ergo it's not good at evoking the classic (or any other) prog era to me, and possibly other people.

Whether I think it's good or not is beside the point entirely.

russellk wrote:

Now you may not feel it's progressive, but the definition you apply is a variant on the 'breaking convention' idea. Retro-prog, which many here classify as prog music, doesn't fit your definition (it can't, because it seeks to follow a particular style, and so by definition must exclude 'progressiveness'), but, like it or not, it's a part of prog.

How?

Edited by Certif1ed - July 01 2008 at 04:52

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415

Posted: June 30 2008 at 15:59

earlyprog wrote:

"Progressive Rock is a form of Rock music with an artistic intention, that is both composed and improvised, takes its influences from a wide variety of sources, and fuses these approaches together to create music that is distinctly unlike anything that has preceeded it."

Ok, a rodent herbivore's version:

- Progressive Rock is an amalgam of eclectic rock music forms with an aesthetic intention, that is both composed and improvised, takes many of its influences from a wide variety of sources unrelated to Rock, and fuses these approaches together to create music that is distinctly unlike that of any of the source materials. -

Ouch, brain meltdown, time for some roadkill perchance....

M@X

Forum & Site Admin Group

Co-founder, Admin & Webmaster

Joined: January 29 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4028

Posted: June 29 2008 at 23:43

Ok guys, I really like what is going on here and would appreciate if it comes handy for the site and ultimately defining "progressive music" and the sub-genres and PA and the collaborators becoming the SOURCE for the true answers to what WAS and what IS "Prog Rock" music.

Wouldn't it be nice (I sound like the Beach Boys ?) if we could replace the WIKIpedia and others encyclopedia definition of PROG MUSIC.

I don't know how it's possible but let's continue this BLOG, open subject and find out where it'll lead.

Nice job Cerf !!!!! and others commenting , a nice progressive discussion.

Edited by M@X - June 29 2008 at 23:45

Prog On !

earlyprog

Collaborator

Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams

Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2133

Posted: June 29 2008 at 10:21

- is a much appreciated attempt at presenting a defintion of progressive rock in just one sentence. I assume this is your purpose.

Therefore, it should be read and understood with a minimum, preferably no, background information. However, the definition is not fully understood without the background information provided in your post - which is somewhat a drawback.

Preferring not to be "affected" by reading the replies to your post, I'll present my intial thoughts on your "definition" of Progressive Rock.

What is "rock"? Isn't rock in its original form, also progressive? Or should it, in the context of your definition, be understood as the first attempts at progressive blues, progressive R&B or progressive pop as it developed in the early/mid 60's. For instance, The Beatles, The Yardbirds, The Animals, Lovin' Spoonful to name af few created music with an artistic intention and contributed to the development of rock. Is "rock" to be understood as "rock" before around "In the Court of the Crimson King"? As progressive rock evolved in the same years as rock, couldn't you argue that rock is a form of progressive rock? Was rock progressive before it became "rock" as we understand it?!
What is meant by "artistic intention"? I find it too vague, and cannot really contribute much more than saying I don't understand the terminology
Is "composed AND improvised" a requirement of progressive rock? Of course, originally progressive rock possibly evolved through improvisation (cf. Pink Floyd) but IMO the best progressive rock avoids improvisation and actually most progressive rock is without improvisation. I prefer something along the lines "Composed and possibly improvised" (still vague - needs revision)
Relying on which "sources"? developments in the technology and/or developments/changes in the society? The "wide varity of sources" is limited to....new instruments, recording techniques, drugs, philosophies....? (for instance, "In the Court...." seems to rely for the first time on a new philosophy that focused on pure progressive rock rather than the partial progressive rock found in proto prog)

(Your definition of progressive rock should by default include "ProjeKct" the R&D department of King Crimson - it seems like it does.)

(Have to run now...)

russellk

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782

Posted: June 25 2008 at 04:46

I just explained it, Certif1ed. It is retro-prog, an example of a modern band evoking the classic prog era. It may or may not be good at what it is, but that's not the issue.

Now you may not feel it's progressive, but the definition you apply is a variant on the 'breaking convention' idea. Retro-prog, which many here classify as prog music, doesn't fit your definition (it can't, because it seeks to follow a particular style, and so by definition must exclude 'progressiveness'), but, like it or not, it's a part of prog.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21149

Posted: June 25 2008 at 03:50

^ Probably just above AC/DC and Manowar. Wink

Recently listened to:

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: June 25 2008 at 03:43

Yes, but Coldplay are also less progressive than Genesis.

Guess where I fit Opeth on the progressive scale...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21149

Posted: June 25 2008 at 03:19

^ some bands are more progressive than others. For example, Camel is less progressive than Genesis. Can't you accept that Opeth fit under the prog umbrella, even if they don't meet your requirements for "true prog"? I mean, you've even given 3 stars to one of their albums, and it's not even My Arms, Your Hearse. Big%20smile

EDIT: I take it back ... it *was* My Arms, Your Hearse. Embarrassed

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 25 2008 at 03:36

Recently listened to:

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: June 25 2008 at 03:05

russellk wrote:

For example: *takes deep breath* Opeth's 'Watershed' is clearly located in one wing of modern prog.

Really?

I'd be interested to read how that might be.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

russellk

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 782

Posted: June 24 2008 at 16:52

I've been doodling for a while, working on a graphic (venn diagram) representation of the prog universe. I want to show the centrality of 'classic (c1969 - c1975) PROG', when the music that added complexity to rock by using elements from other music genres was also PROGRESSIVE, that is, it progressed by breaking convention. Either side of it, with appropriate intersections to classic prog - but mutually exclusive to each other - are the two modern 'wings' of prog: RETRO-PROG, in which modern bands evoke classic prog (including much of prog metal and all of neo-prog), and PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, in which modern bands progress by breaking convention (some of which is related to classic prog, but by definition CANNOT evoke classic prog, because that's now a convention).

Another set intersects with all this, called PROG-RELATED, defined as 'primarily another genre, but with elements of classic prog'. I'm currently working through all the bands on this site I know, and other artists also, seeing if I can 'break' the diagram. Does it work for SGM? VDGG? Henry Cow? Merzbow? Autechre? Wobbler? I'm also locating the various sub-genres of prog as defined here, a much more problematic task!

This diagram (which I cannot post yet as it's not finished) helps highlight the constant misunderstanding between those who adhere to one or the other of the two modern wings of prog. 'That's not prog,' one will say. 'What do you mean,' says the other. 'That's heartland prog!'

For example: *takes deep breath* Opeth's 'Watershed' is clearly located in one wing of modern prog.

Both RETRO-PROG and PROGRESSIVE MUSIC are here, they are mutually exclusive, and both (for better or worse) are now considered prog. Time we started talking to each other ...

Edited by russellk - June 24 2008 at 17:01

Certif1ed

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559

Posted: June 24 2008 at 08:48

You'd really need to define the separate subgenres of Prog rather than Prog itself - Prog is an ideal that only very few bands actually attained - and most of those in the "Golden" age.

The definition of the ideal hasn't changed, but the definition of the reality of the music has.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21149

Posted: June 24 2008 at 08:34

Maybe a comparison of the different approaches of defining Prog. Smile