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cuncuna 
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Joined: March 29 2005
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 Topic: How.....? Its so sad that....
Posted: July 26 2007 at 11:50 |
 Dirk wrote:
 , i bought a Mercury rev album really cheap a year ago, there were good reasons for it being that cheap.
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"Deserter's Song", "All is Dream" and the recent "Secret Migration" are all very beautiful albums, but not prog at all. Seriously. The other Mercury Rev's albums "Yerself is steam" and the else are not recommendable.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Time Signature
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Joined: July 20 2007
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Points: 362
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 14:45 |
Prog being such a broad genre and having had such an impact in the history of modern music, there's bound to be a plethora of performers with some connection to prog, and there is bound to be a considerable variety among those performers, and there are bound to be fans who don't consider a particular performer prog while others do.
Moreover, prog, like all other genres of music, changes over time, which means the inclusion of performers into the genre at one point in time who might not have been included at some other point in time.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 07:16 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I think that most bashing threads are created because of misunderstandings and/or preconceptions. And like I said so many times before: If you want to determine the progressiveness of a band you'll have to find their most progressive album first and then listen to it ... the only Nightwish album I heard in full was (is) Once, so I'm not really qualified to say whether they're prog or not.
BTW: Which Lacrimosa albums do you think are progressive?
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Of the two I originally mentioned: Elodia and Stille, I would choose Elodia which features the London Symphony Orchestra, so is obviously more orchestral than Stille, it is also a concept album in three "acts" (a bit like PoS  ).
I didn't like Once much - I hate to level the word "commercial" at it in a negative way, because that implies a level of prog-elitism on my part, but unfortunately that is what seperates it from Oceanborne or Wishmaster IMHO.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 06:59 |
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^ I think that most bashing threads are created because of misunderstandings and/or preconceptions. And like I said so many times before: If you want to determine the progressiveness of a band you'll have to find their most progressive album first and then listen to it ... the only Nightwish album I heard in full was (is) Once, so I'm not really qualified to say whether they're prog or not.
BTW: Which Lacrimosa albums do you think are progressive?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 06:52 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
They are here and will remain, I just don't think they "fit". I think that of all elements that can make something "prog" the use of symphonic/orchestral elements is the one that is most difficult to judge. I know many bands that use these elements to the extreme but I wouldn't call them prog, and I know some others who only use them occasionally and IMO are very prog. For me it really depends on whether the symphonic/orchestral elements are an integral part of the songs or whether they're just "embellishments".
But as I said: Maybe I simply haven't heard the right Lacrimosa album!
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Lacrimosa span three major genres and don't really fit in any of them - you'll find them mentioned on Metal, Goth and Prog sites where they will have as many detractors as supporters and the detractors will always claim they are not metal enough, or not goth enough or not prog enough. It is a common complaint levelled at all Gothic-Metal bands - too metal to be goth, to gothic to be metal - so when they add a progressive element into their music it only serves to strengthen the arguments against them from the other two.
I agree with you on the symphonic/orchestral point. I think we overplay the symphonic word here and use it too easily to justify a band being even remotely prog. Bands like Dimmu Borgir, who are probably one of the most symphonic bands going at the moment, (and from what I have observed, fairly well respected by several members here), are not progressive at all (nor would they want to be  ).
In Tilo Wolff's defense I would say that the orchestral parts of Lacrimosa's music is not only integral, they are the basis from which the songs were composed, but to describe them as symphonic per se just because they are orchestral sounding would be inaccurate as there are other levels to the compositions, (unlike Therion or Haggard for example, who I find to be a little 1-dimensional musically, but enormous fun to listen too).
You have not listed which albums of theirs you have heard, but if it was Elodia or Stille, then you are unlikely to change your mind. 
I must admit I was surprised to find Lacrimosa here, but not disapointed.
I do find it sad, however, is that as far as I can tell this whole thread came into existance because someone made a judgement on this great band based upon their physical image (gothic-punks!) rather than on their music. If we all did that then Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and a lot of the other RIO/Advant acts would never be listed.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 03:26 |
The T wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
For the record: I also don't think that Lacrimosa fit in here ... but then again I haven't heard all of their (numerous) albums. I guess that objectively they did have a few ambitious symphonic albums. |
Their use of symphonic orchestra and structures, their instrumentation... they derserve to be here.... |
They are here and will remain, I just don't think they "fit". I think that of all elements that can make something "prog" the use of symphonic/orchestral elements is the one that is most difficult to judge. I know many bands that use these elements to the extreme but I wouldn't call them prog, and I know some others who only use them occasionally and IMO are very prog. For me it really depends on whether the symphonic/orchestral elements are an integral part of the songs or whether they're just "embellishments". But as I said: Maybe I simply haven't heard the right Lacrimosa album!
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: July 21 2007 at 02:35 |
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Dim
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 17 2007
Location: Austin TX
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Points: 6890
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 22:17 |
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Well, I dont understand why we have mastadon on here, but buck up, we have Yes!
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Dirk
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:49 |
, i bought a Mercury rev album really cheap a year ago, there were good reasons for it being that cheap.
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:45 |
I don't care much for this topic, since band listed in progarchives are not a scientific representation of the prog bands universe etc., but then again Mercury Rev is listed as prog act... ¡¡¡¿¿¿AND WHERE THE HELL IS DAVID BOWIE???!!!  ... c'mon; if only for the conceptual continuity or for coherence's sake...
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Dirk
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:45 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I just listened to the only example track of Lacrimosa in the archives, "Warum so tief" ("Why so Deep") and found that, apart from the slightly puerile lyrics and the way too heavily mixed drums, they are not that bad. Nothing special, but I wouldn't mind to hear more. They remind me a bit of another German band, Element of Crime.
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Really? Guess i've to take them seriously then, you once recommended Guru guru let alone Gong and i've never regretted following that advice since  .
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:35 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
For the record: I also don't think that Lacrimosa fit in here ... but then again I haven't heard all of their (numerous) albums. I guess that objectively they did have a few ambitious symphonic albums. |
Their use of symphonic orchestra and structures, their instrumentation... they derserve to be here....
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The T
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 21:33 |
I have ECHOS and find Lacrimosa a very good band....
If we talk about noisy bands not deserving to be here, well, I have a few candidates MUCH MORE deserving the "noisy" adjective... |
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debrewguy
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 18:29 |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 18:20 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I just listened to the only example track of Lacrimosa in the archives, "Warum so tief" ("Why so Deep") and found that, apart from the slightly puerile lyrics and the way too heavily mixed drums, they are not that bad. Nothing special, but I wouldn't mind to hear more. They remind me a bit of another German band, Element of Crime. |
Ah, yes, their lyrics are a little purile at times - one of the few times I've ever been happy not to understand the German language. Fassade is one of their "okay" abums, Satura, Stille and Elodia are better. I'll have to check out Element of Crime sometime.
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Rivertree
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Band Submissions
Joined: March 22 2006
Location: Germany
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 17:37 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I just listened to the only example track of Lacrimosa in the archives, "Warum so tief" ("Why so Deep") and found that, apart from the slightly puerile lyrics and the way too heavily mixed drums, they are not that bad. Nothing special, but I wouldn't mind to hear more. They remind me a bit of another German band, Element of Crime.
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Element Of Crime - a very special band - I have got the live CD Crime Pays, very energetic with english vocals - later they changed to german ...
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BaldFriede
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Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 17:15 |
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I just listened to the only example track of Lacrimosa in the archives, "Warum so tief" ("Why so Deep") and found that, apart from the slightly puerile lyrics and the way too heavily mixed drums, they are not that bad. Nothing special, but I wouldn't mind to hear more. They remind me a bit of another German band, Element of Crime.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
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Points: 7606
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:48 |
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Merzbox wasn't all that recent. If memory serves it was released to signify the end of his "analog" era and his migration to laptop composition.
(not prog) =P
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:47 |
queenlerxst wrote:
twilight_mage wrote:
I think this page was made for us, the prog lovers, not the gothic punks!!!! |
I thought Goth and Punk were usually 2 separate genres.  |
I agree, but a nice concept though - like Hawkwind were Space-punks, Van der Graaf were Art-goths, Yes were Techno-punks, Gong were Punk-hippies, King Crimson were Gothic-erm-goths. 
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005
Location: hell
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Points: 28427
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Posted: July 20 2007 at 16:44 |
The Doctor wrote:
Speaking of Merzbow...didn't he release a 50-cd boxset recently? And if memory serves correctly it was all supposed to be unreleased stuff. For the small pricetag of something like 450 pounds. Yikes.  Forget the Daleks, that stuff will kill, if the price doesn't get ya, the noise will! |
Yep, it costs $500, and I really want it... 
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
How.....? Its so sad that....
, that some noise makers, like lacrimosa, are in progarchives!!!!!! I think this page was made for us, the prog lovers, not the gothic punks!!!! this is very disapointing, that noise makers do not belong here!!!!!! how they could....?? 
this was my favorite page, but now I dont know if i can find good prog in this pages, because I realize that is plagued with those noise makers.... 