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Ricochet 
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Joined: February 27 2005
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 Topic: Should ProgArchives turn into ProgMusicAr
Posted: June 30 2007 at 00:59 |
 debrewguy wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
erik neuteboom wrote:
For me Kitaro is a pioneering musician who blended electronic - and ethnic (Japanese) music that easily could be described as Progressive Music. I have to admit that he made many (boring) New Age sounding albums. Nonetheless, on this site are a lot of bands that made only a few proggy albums and then pure pop, rock, blues, etc. so there is no reason to exclude Kitaro because of those New Age albums in my opinion. |
okay, here's to a friendly conversation about Kitaro  :
- not sure what he pioneered, in the 80s; it seems that he mostly had chosen a type of electronic fragrance to stick to it; I don't know other examples of pioneering, yet I don't think Kitaro was the essential emblem
- the ethnic thing is good to mention, but has many artificial or popular senses
- if many of his albums are boring, why would the style not be deficitary. in my impression, Kitaro's albums would be, for progressiveness, between one and two stars. Is that a good image of a Prog Artist or a rather desolating one?
 - I wouldn't mix pop, rock, blues and all these styles with an artist of New-Age; maybe there's nothing to debate here, but New-Age seems like a treatment beyond the usual effects of mixing some prog value with some edgy non-prog music taste
and very important to tell, it struck me out of the entire quote
- Kitaro didn't make some New-Age albums, he made only New-Age albums; from 1978's Astral Voyage to this year's new album Spiritual Garden, he has made only New-Age albums; and the style is quite continuous too, he mostly started garnishing the melody with more guitar or boost ambient in the 90s, but that's it.
don't think I'm not enjoying this wonderful conversation (or am hassling things), we can do this forever! 
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Er, um, I picked up a Tangerine Dream double live LP some years back at a yard sale. Played it twice & sold it. Sounded new age in the sense that it was mostly "atmosphere" & "mood", i.e. very little memorable melodies or songs. Are they new age ?
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Of course not. Tangerine Dream even tries to outdone new-age, thanks to ambient, melody electronic, pop dynamic or so (or thanks to an ego of playing different atmospheres and ambiances, even when their...atmosphere and ambiances). Not that they succeed every time, during the 90s,, just that they dry a much broadened approach from it. Did you randomly pick your Tangerine Dream album? Cause, even with the 90s of new-age, ambient, pop melody and atmosphere programming, Tangerine Dream is still responsible for one of the clearest music patterns of progressive electronic, up in the 70s, going from space rock to analog sequence, from sound sensation to dynamic and melodic attraction. So I can't see the business with Tangerine Dream being called new-age, at least not entirely, unless there is a bad connection of knowing it (or not sticking to the essential). neither do I see where that leads to Kitaro, who has done such a massive work of new-age, and barely something comes to sound like Tangerine Dream. 
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glasshouse27
Forum Groupie
Joined: October 24 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 50
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Posted: June 29 2007 at 21:00 |
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NO!
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: June 28 2007 at 21:34 |
Ricochet wrote:
erik neuteboom wrote:
For me Kitaro is a pioneering musician who blended electronic - and ethnic (Japanese) music that easily could be described as Progressive Music. I have to admit that he made many (boring) New Age sounding albums. Nonetheless, on this site are a lot of bands that made only a few proggy albums and then pure pop, rock, blues, etc. so there is no reason to exclude Kitaro because of those New Age albums in my opinion. |
okay, here's to a friendly conversation about Kitaro :
- not sure what he pioneered, in the 80s; it seems that he mostly had chosen a type of electronic fragrance to stick to it; I don't know other examples of pioneering, yet I don't think Kitaro was the essential emblem
- the ethnic thing is good to mention, but has many artificial or popular senses
- if many of his albums are boring, why would the style not be deficitary. in my impression, Kitaro's albums would be, for progressiveness, between one and two stars. Is that a good image of a Prog Artist or a rather desolating one?
- I wouldn't mix pop, rock, blues and all these styles with an artist of New-Age; maybe there's nothing to debate here, but New-Age seems like a treatment beyond the usual effects of mixing some prog value with some edgy non-prog music taste
and very important to tell, it struck me out of the entire quote
- Kitaro didn't make some New-Age albums, he made only New-Age albums; from 1978's Astral Voyage to this year's new album Spiritual Garden, he has made only New-Age albums; and the style is quite continuous too, he mostly started garnishing the melody with more guitar or boost ambient in the 90s, but that's it.
don't think I'm not enjoying this wonderful conversation (or am hassling things), we can do this forever!
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Er, um, I picked up a Tangerine Dream double live LP some years back at a yard sale. Played it twice & sold it. Sounded new age in the sense that it was mostly "atmosphere" & "mood", i.e. very little memorable melodies or songs. Are they new age ?
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: June 28 2007 at 06:38 |
Symphonic Prog Archives really flows, Fuxi 
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2461
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Posted: June 28 2007 at 05:01 |
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Apart from anything else, don't you agree that ProgMusicArchives simply SOUNDS wrong?
I don't remember the technical term for such thingies, but "Progarchives" has exactly the right kind of beat, (strong-weak-strong) whereas "ProgMusicArchives" definitely doesn't.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 16:19 |
Ricochet, I didn't wrote 'some' but 'many ' New Age albums and he made at least four interesting albums with a progressive blend of ethnic and electronic, to me this sounds as a perfect curriculum vitae to be added to Prog Archives ... but unfortunately for Kitaro I am not the Additions Chief
    
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1978=Astral Voyage 1 |
1979=Oasis |
1979=Full Moon Story |
1980= Silk Road 1 & 2 |
1980=Silk Road Suite |
Edited by erik neuteboom - June 26 2007 at 16:21
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 11:33 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
For me Kitaro is a pioneering musician who blended electronic - and ethnic (Japanese) music that easily could be described as Progressive Music. I have to admit that he made many (boring) New Age sounding albums. Nonetheless, on this site are a lot of bands that made only a few proggy albums and then pure pop, rock, blues, etc. so there is no reason to exclude Kitaro because of those New Age albums in my opinion. |
okay, here's to a friendly conversation about Kitaro : - not sure what he pioneered, in the 80s; it seems that he mostly had chosen a type of electronic fragrance to stick to it; I don't know other examples of pioneering, yet I don't think Kitaro was the essential emblem
- the ethnic thing is good to mention, but has many artificial or popular senses
- if many of his albums are boring, why would the style not be deficitary. in my impression, Kitaro's albums would be, for progressiveness, between one and two stars. Is that a good image of a Prog Artist or a rather desolating one?
- I wouldn't mix pop, rock, blues and all these styles with an artist of New-Age; maybe there's nothing to debate here, but New-Age seems like a treatment beyond the usual effects of mixing some prog value with some edgy non-prog music taste
and very important to tell, it struck me out of the entire quote - Kitaro didn't make some New-Age albums, he made only New-Age albums; from 1978's Astral Voyage to this year's new album Spiritual Garden, he has made only New-Age albums; and the style is quite continuous too, he mostly started garnishing the melody with more guitar or boost ambient in the 90s, but that's it.
don't think I'm not enjoying this wonderful conversation (or am hassling things), we can do this forever!
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 11:21 |
yeah, but he's hardly progressive electronic is he??
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 11:19 |
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For me Kitaro is a pioneering musician who blended electronic - and ethnic (Japanese) music that easily could be described as Progressive Music. I have to admit that he made many (boring) New Age sounding albums. Nonetheless, on this site are a lot of bands that made only a few proggy albums and then pure pop, rock, blues, etc. so there is no reason to exclude Kitaro because of those New Age albums in my opinion.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 02:21 |
Ricochet wrote:
@Erik and Ivan, since they both mentioned it: I really don't see what the great relation between Jean Michel Jarre and Kitaro would be; one made one kind of popular, home-treated, expansive and sophisticated language electronic; the other made a personal, oriental, spiritual and silent other kind of electronic "nuage". |
Hi Rico, just a point, I never compared Kitaro and Jarre in style or anything, I said and I quote myself:
I wrote :
| That's what I feared and honestly agreed in the Jarre case, but this is an example of a musician that should be accepted in Prog Related with no problem. |
My point is that I supported the move of Jarre to Prog Related as an example of bands that should not be in a Prog sub-genre but can be in Prog Related, i could had mentioned Be Bop Deluxe who I believe is being moved from Art Rock to Prog Related but I used Jarre because he was mentioned in the previous post but only as an example of an artist who has been moved from ANY 100% Prog sub-genre to the Prog Related category or an artist moved to Prog Related (I know Kitaro is not in the Archives), not because there's a musical relation between both artists.
Ricochet wrote:
Back to Ivan's suggestion: I cannot certify for Prog Related, since it's not my genre and my acquaintance of a full form and policy. But I do believe that Prog Related electronic musicians have, instantaneously, a relation with Progressive Electronic. A lesser, weaker, more defectuous, more distant or more doused one (by each case). Therefore adding Kitaro and saying he doesn't have the progressive electronic idea isn't to work, since Kitaro's only possible relation to Prog is by Progressive Electronic. |
I would never dare to tell you or Phillippe to accept or reject an artist, that's your opinion and you are the experts on the sub-genre, I respect what the teams (Who know much more than me about the genres they are in charge) decide.
I don't know if Kitaro should have ever been accepted in a 100% Prog Sub-Genre, as a fact I don't believe he should be, as I don't believe Jarre, Be Bop Deluxe or STYX beloong in any really Prog sub-genre.
But I believe that despite a mainly New Age sound, there are some very diluted Symphonic elements that make him a candidate for Prog Related, but neither is my call, the Administrators should decide that, even when I would support his addition to Prog Related but not to any really Prog sub-genre as Symphonic, Electronic or Neo Prog.
Thanks and sorry if I wasn't clear.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 26 2007 at 02:39
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micky
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 02:11 |
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^ that's our boy hahhahha
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65479
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 02:09 |
Ricochet wrote:
@Erik: I'm sorry, dear friend, to have to ask why a rejection to an artist so simply far from any progressive electronic main standards seems like an act of "strong subjective and in-consequent tendencies". Why not think, instead, that progressive electronic has recently received a new and improved definition, which helped make an art out of the genre and a progressive lean out of its main inspiration, and has boosted at double the size of the genre's Archives, leaving the casual and superficial artists towards more and more good electronic musicians with a high fame in the respective schools and a high experiment in making the art of prog electro work. Better.@Erik and Ivan, since they both mentioned it: I really don't see what
the great relation between Jean Michel Jarre and Kitaro would be; one
made one kind of popular, home-treated, expansive and sophisticated
language electronic; the other made a personal, oriental, spiritual and
silent other kind of electronic "nuage".
Is Kitaro quite contemplating to the progressive electronic stage, even
if the definitions and the "progressive standards" of the genre have
been improved very much in this last half an year, as to actually try
to thicken the "short line" between artists very eligible for the genre
and artists too independent or, the case here, too far from the general
ideas and movements presented or approved? I think he was moderately (at most) wanted and taken into account, small suggestion threads aroused in a normal pace, the usual consensus was at least a very doubtful one. In rest, the Team of the genre took it under advice and under consensus. I have all the official albums and there are two or three that, barely, say to me Kitaro did something of a more progressive kind in his Electronic-Age music etc. etc. etc. Back to Ivan's suggestion: I cannot certify for Prog Related, since it's not my genre and my acquaintance of a full form and policy. But I do believe that Prog Related electronic musicians have, instantaneously, a relation with Progressive Electronic. A lesser, weaker, more defectuous, more distant or more doused one (by each case). Therefore adding Kitaro and saying he doesn't have the progressive electronic idea isn't to work, since Kitaro's only possible relation to Prog is by Progressive Electronic. To shorten it out (kinda), Kitaro has, in my opinion, no progressive means by his music and his New-Age factor (and if New-Age's really what "Prog Related should mean", pardon, then you should account Rick Wakeman for it, even with his 7 shiny implacable points that make him a progressive classic musician << yes, three or four magnificent but also forgotten masterpieces, the same with the master-style, instead 100+ albums of pure New-age criticism, two decade of un-progressive music the minute the classic period was over, a really low connection, as soloist, with Yes and the brotherhood of that symphonic legendary moment, very doubtful and 'regressive' for a full genre, yet indeed very good for a Prog Related position, helping Prog Related be "what it should mean">>- but let's not spread into this discussion). If, then again, Kitaro is wanted for his influence or his possible strings of development (though I can't imagine much), I guess the choice of PR related isn't ultimately mine or philippe's. |
Well presented!
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 02:01 |
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I agree Rico... it again... it the making of additions.. and rejections a personal thing that has worked to the detriment of this site. Those who call those who suggest PR or PP additions the work of fanboys is insulting the intelligence of those whose only crime is seeing what is and is not Prog or PR differently from the loud mouths here hahhaha
Edited by micky - June 26 2007 at 02:01
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 01:57 |
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@Erik: I'm sorry, dear friend, to have to ask why a rejection to an artist so simply far from any progressive electronic main standards seems like an act of "strong subjective and in-consequent tendencies". Why not think, instead, that progressive electronic has recently received a new and improved definition, which helped make an art out of the genre and a progressive lean out of its main inspiration, and has boosted at double the size of the genre's Archives, leaving the casual and superficial artists towards more and more good electronic musicians with a high fame in the respective schools and a high experiment in making the art of prog electro work. Better.
@Erik and Ivan, since they both mentioned it: I really don't see what
the great relation between Jean Michel Jarre and Kitaro would be; one
made one kind of popular, home-treated, expansive and sophisticated
language electronic; the other made a personal, oriental, spiritual and
silent other kind of electronic "nuage".
Is Kitaro quite contemplating to the progressive electronic stage, even
if the definitions and the "progressive standards" of the genre have
been improved very much in this last half an year, as to actually try
to thicken the "short line" between artists very eligible for the genre
and artists too independent or, the case here, too far from the general
ideas and movements presented or approved? I think he was moderately (at most) wanted and taken into account, small suggestion threads aroused in a normal pace, the usual consensus was at least a very doubtful one. In rest, the Team of the genre took it under advice and under consensus. I have all the official albums and there are two or three that, barely, say to me Kitaro did something of a more progressive kind in his Electronic-Age music etc. etc. etc.
Back to Ivan's suggestion: I cannot certify for Prog Related, since it's not my genre and my acquaintance of a full form and policy. But I do believe that Prog Related electronic musicians have, instantaneously, a relation with Progressive Electronic. A lesser, weaker, more defectuous, more distant or more doused one (by each case). Therefore adding Kitaro and saying he doesn't have the progressive electronic idea isn't to work, since Kitaro's only possible relation to Prog is by Progressive Electronic.
To shorten it out (kinda), Kitaro has, in my opinion, no progressive means by his music and his New-Age factor (and if New-Age's really what "Prog Related should mean", pardon, then you should account Rick Wakeman for it, even with his 7 shiny implacable points that make him a progressive classic musician << yes, three or four magnificent but also forgotten masterpieces, the same with the master-style, instead 100+ albums of pure New-age criticism, two decade of un-progressive music the minute the classic period was over, a really low connection, as soloist, with Yes and the brotherhood of that symphonic legendary moment, very doubtful and 'regressive' for a full genre, yet indeed very good for a Prog Related position, helping Prog Related be "what it should mean">>- but let's not spread into this discussion). If, then again, Kitaro is wanted for his influence or his possible strings of development (though I can't imagine much), I guess the choice of PR related isn't ultimately mine or philippe's.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46838
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 01:21 |
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: June 26 2007 at 01:13 |
Tony R wrote:
Erik wrote:
I miss a kind of pure objective Progressive Investigation Comittee that
is responsible for an objective and consequent addition policy. |
Well I tried to set one up Erik, but petty jealousies kiboshed it before it even started...
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of course hahhaah...
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
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Posted: June 25 2007 at 20:59 |
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Ooooo, good analogy! ^
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clarke2001
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Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
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Points: 4160
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Posted: June 25 2007 at 19:09 |
 Let the name and this lovely logo stay. ProgArchives is a brand renowned on the Internet and it have its tradition (it's quite long-lasting for the Internet site). Even if the site changes it's path from prog rock to progressive music in general (and I have mixed emotions about that) the name should stay, really. it's like an old brand of beer: it's not brewed by monks in monastery anymore, it's made in the modern factory; but the tradition, recipe, the core idea and the name stays.
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anthamatten
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 06 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 14
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Posted: June 25 2007 at 18:49 |
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo new name.
Today I was working privateley in the basement all day long listening to a radio-station meant for young people. They played all day long the newest Pop-songs "This is the music you like the most" (what an intelligent phrase). After a while I thought: what a poor life for the young people. There is no station that spreads music what we are naming "Prog".
Prog is everything my wife is saying: shut up this noise!!!
And that is exactly what is happening on the radio. Prog is not played, at least not in Germany on radio. You have to go and buy it in a shop.
Isn't that a defintion of Prog?
A.
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Be the one of my dreams
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: June 25 2007 at 18:26 |
Erik wrote:
I miss a kind of pure objective Progressive Investigation Comittee that
is responsible for an objective and consequent addition policy. |
Well I tried to set one up Erik, but petty jealousies kiboshed it before it even started...
Edited by Tony R - June 25 2007 at 18:27
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Should ProgArchives turn into ProgMusicAr
