Pat Metheny... Prog?

Peter wrote: Sometimes I just weary of all the "is this prog?" "who is the best?" type threads -- because of the subjectivity involved, I find them to be basically pointless.

"Who is the best" -the starting point of many a healthy discussion in my local.This is normal behaviour Peter. Why do you think the Guiness Book Of Records sells so many copies?

We have the Booker Prize for Literature over here and it is basically an award for the best novel by a Commonwealth novelist of the last year. MVP, Man Of Steel,Best Pound-for Pound,Best In Show, humans are obsessed with who is the best and the why's and the wherefores are the most enjoyable part of it.

How about "what's the worst example of screaming on an album you've heard this year?"

Peter wrote: Dick Heath wrote: Peter wrote: He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to.   And you know my feelings here Peter. Jazz rock dating from  before Soft Machine Volume 2 and Third,  was originally gathered under the prog rock umbrella - I don't remember anybody arguing the toss back then. Keith Emerson did jazz (e.g. his interpretion of Brubeck's Rondo), and used jazz musicians to augment the Nice. How many of those Hammond organ based prog bands of the early 70's  relied on jazz breaks for solos - aspiring Jimmy Smiths??? If rock could be fused with serious music, folk,, world, to give variants of prog rock - why not with jazz? I think the problem is that we've got sloppy, using  the broader and vaguer term 'jazz fusion', which more often as not has little or nothing to do with rock rhythms or whatever. My only real issue with that, Dick, is the old "where does it all end?" sentiment. Bela Fleck? David Sanborn? Miles' (electric) 80s output? etc, etc....

I'm coming to think there are start and cut off points for some sub-genres of prog, if not all. (I've said somewhere in these archives, that some of Yes's output should be banned from here, simply because it don't progress in any way).

 Krimson's In The Court and the first Renaissance albums were probably seen as the first clear-cut prog rock albums - in truth, we are vaguer about the Moodies' Days Of Future Passed (that inclusion is more hindsight beit from 2 or 3 years). So when Nice went occasionally jazz and Machine  nearly completely jazz, the novelty, convenience and lack of  competition in the prog genre, meant very few would get over-worried/over-heated, as to whether jazz rock should be included. Hence the inclusion of Mahavishnu Orchestra, RTF, (perhaps) Tasavallan Presidentti early on - but is Miles Davis or Tony Williams Lifetime prog rock.....................?. As mainstream prog blossomed - ditto jazz rock - more variants came into play. Jazz rock fusion will have propagated  enough artists and albums, and develop enough musical differences to slowly become separated (to some)from prog.  But by default, if MO, RTF etc. were prog and also jazz rock, then the later jazz rock bands are too- or are they? So it could be surmissed, if Steeley Dan had released several of their classic albums  5 years early, then their jazz rock would have also been absorbed into prog rock.  

But what for instance,  of Bruford and Holdsworth's (even Bruford with Holdsworth's) jazz-based rock (or rock-based jazz) -? Bruford always claimed he brought jazz drumming sensiblities to Yes - as did Mitch Mitchell to Hendrix's blues rock. Bruford did play for Yes and Krimson (even Genesis). The sum of the parts of Bruford (the band),  give some credence to being also prog. Bruford's Earthworks (essentially Bruford  leading  originally, a few former members of the great 80's jazz big band Loose Tubes) have some rock sensibilities - but Bruford post-Crimson, is he now almost a complete jazzman (and not prog at all)? Holdworth - too scary for both jazz and rock purists to claim for their own, and a number of his early bands being called prog - 'Igginbottom (????? but released on a prog label....), Tempest, Soft Machine (????), UK (the last original prog band??), Bruford(???), Lifetime (????). However, such a monster musician needs a home somewhere and jazz-based prog rock may have been convenient....

And brass rock (aka rock jazz) of BST, (early) Chicago, Heaven, Dreams, If, etc. : prog rock or not?

You know Peter, the more I think about, the more I realise the music was a lot simpler to classify in 1972.

Dick Heath wrote: Peter wrote: He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to.   And you know my feelings here Peter. Jazz rock dating from  before Soft Machine Volume 2 and Third,  was originally gathered under the prog rock umbrella - I don't remember anybody arguing the toss back then. Keith Emerson did jazz (e.g. his interpretion of Brubeck's Rondo), and used jazz musicians to augment the Nice. How many of those Hammond organ based prog bands of the early 70's  relied on jazz breaks for solos - aspiring Jimmy Smiths??? If rock could be fused with serious music, folk,, world, to give variants of prog rock - why not with jazz? I think the problem is that we've got sloppy, using  the broader and vaguer term 'jazz fusion', which more often as not has little or nothing to do with rock rhythms or whatever.

My only real issue with that, Dick, is the old "where does it all end?" sentiment. Bela Fleck? David Sanborn? Miles' (electric) 80s output? etc, etc....

^ Thanks for the cool-headed response, Sweetnighter.

As I've long said here, what we each like/dislike/call "prog" is a highly subjective thing, on which there will NEVER be consensus.

Sometimes I just weary of all the "is this prog?" "who is the best?" type threads -- because of the subjectivity involved, I find them to be basically pointless.

Still, as you suggest, such can provide for "interesting," if passionate, discussion.

As Maani would say:

peace!

Peter wrote: Sweetnighter wrote: Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean? DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know? Why make that assumption? I have tons of Metheny albums, have been a fan since the 70s, and have seen him live twice. But A Fantastic Jazz Guitarist! (See the poll.) He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to. I really like Metheny, but if he is prog, are all of the other 70s-80s jazz artists who use electic instruments, and who I have filed in the jazz section of my collection, therefore prog too? Why not? They are on my compilations with Metheny. C'mon, lets get David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Special EFX, Passport, Ponty, Lee Ritenour, etc, etc, on here too! I am sick of all this "Is my fave prog?" crap. It NEVER ends! Why is this sort of thing such a critical issue for so many? Two guys (the originators and owners of the site) decide what is on here. (The alternative would be endless arguing.) They are human, not encyclopedias, and likely haven't heard every album in every one of our collections. My advice: deal with it, or start your own website. If people really don't like this site, or the way it is run, or the way in which artists are classified, WHY DON'T THEY LEAVE? (That was not meant for you personally, Sweetnighter, but for all the perpetual complainers -- those who come late to the game, don't find a particular artist, and make angry posts and assumptions about this site, its administration, and its reviewers, without bothering to find out how things work around here. Especially one!)

Oh I wasn't doubting that you had Metheny albums, but somebody asked "who?" so I was addressing that post as well as yours in my response.

And why make a big deal out of it? Alright, the guys who own the site determine what they consider to be prog and they put those groups/musicians in the archives. As a result, those who largely agree with what they put in the archives come to converse with other prog fans on this web forum. Now, does that mean that if somebody has a slightly altered version of what they consider to be prog, that its wrong? In making this poll I wanted to see if anybody else agreed with me on the point that Metheny's group has many progressive rock elements in its music. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm asking for the opinions of others, I'm not trying to claim the site owners as having made some mistake.

The other point you made brings up other questions that need discussion, not here though, but in another thread. Is Jazz Fusion a form of Progressive Rock or not? Is "Prog Metal" really prog? Of course we all have our opinions...  think that some metal and death-metal groups included on the site don't qualify for what I consider to be prog, whereas some jazz-rock artists I enjoy listening to, in my mind's eye (or ear) play progressive rock... of course thats just my opinion! Others are entitled to theirs and I'm not trying to challenge anybody.  

Sweetnighter wrote: Oh come on! First off, if you haven't picked up any Metheny albums, do it. Secondly, what does BAFJG mean? DallasBryan, what album is it that you're thinking of, do you know?

Why make that assumption? I have tons of Metheny albums, have been a fan since the 70s, and have seen him live twice.

But A Fantastic Jazz Guitarist! (See the poll.)

He belongs on a jazz site, not a prog rock one.  If it was up to me (but it's not, thank goodness!), no jazz fusion or metal would be here, because this is the sort of thing it leads to.

I really like Metheny, but if he is prog, are all of the other 70s-80s jazz artists who use electic instruments, and who I have filed in the jazz section of my collection, therefore prog too? Why not? They are on my compilations with Metheny. C'mon, lets get David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Special EFX, Passport, Ponty, Lee Ritenour, etc, etc, on here too!

I am sick of all this "Is my fave prog?" crap. It NEVER ends! Why is this sort of thing such a critical issue for so many?

Two guys (the originators and owners of the site) decide what is on here. (The alternative would be endless arguing.) They are human, not encyclopedias, and likely haven't heard every album in every one of our collections. My advice: deal with it, or start your own website.

If people really don't like this site, or the way it is run, or the way in which artists are classified, WHY DON'T THEY LEAVE?

(That was not meant for you personally, Sweetnighter, but for all the perpetual complainers -- those who come late to the game, don't find a particular artist, and make angry posts and assumptions about this site, its administration, and its reviewers, without bothering to find out how things work around here. Especially one!)

Song X is too experimental for me. The title track has some melodic elements, but overall..it's just an experiment that I doubt I'd ever go for. OTOH, a lot of his stuff is highly melodic. My fav being First Circle, particularly the 2 tracks Yolanda, You Learn and the title track. In some ways it reminds me of Genesis. The vocal harmonies from Pedro Aznar on those numbers are incredible.

is he Prog?..not exactly, is he Jazz?..a form maybe...he's really just diverse. Jazz-Rock would be my best description, but not like Mahavishnu Orchestra or Return to Forever exactly. He's almost like Jazz-Rock-World Music, or World/Ethnic Fusion. I love how he uses that synclaviar-synth guitar that sounds like a trumpet.

I am likely finally going to see him live next month

Kyle

DallasBryan wrote: Pat Metheny Song X(its an album, nothing like anything else from him) with Ornette Coleman Jack DeJohnette Charlie Haden Forgot what the style is but Ornette was the master. Everybody solos extremely fast in different directions, like they are all on different songs. Then when they all hit the same stride, everyones at full speed and its on. Really good stuff for avant garde jazz heads. But you gotta really concentrate and listen critically to each musician and hear what they are doing. Its the musicians music. DeJohnette and Haden are legends in modern abstract jazz circles.

'Song X' along with 'Zero Tolerance For Silence' are excellent if somewhat difficult listening. It's amazing that these albums are produced by the same man that made tracks like 'The Bat Pt 1 & 2' or 'Across The Heartland'. 

A wonderful guitarist/composer/improviser.