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tszirmay 
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 Topic: Can Pop be Prog?
Posted: May 29 2008 at 21:05 |
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< The avatar will explain that progressive music (as Roxy certainly always was) can become popular , simply because it had a mass appeal as well as musical magic. Instrumentally a great prog band can be pop but somehow the reverse is not as obvious.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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jammun
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Posted: May 15 2008 at 20:58 |
 russellk wrote:
Sorry, Jammun, but you make it sound so certain when it wasn't. There was absolutely no clear distinction between pop and prog even in the early to mid 70s. It was all mixed together - hard rock, psychedelica, symphonic rock and pop - sometimes on the one album! Yes, there were albums and artists that were pure pop, and others purely something else, but that does not justify a statement asserting that it was like 1 and 0. |
Yeah, perhaps I'm oversimplifying it. I'd still say that the line between the two (prog and pop) was a bit more defined back then. But then again I could make the same argument today choosing, say, Tool and Mariah Carey.
Maybe we have to adapt the old statement about porn to prog: I don't know what it is, but I know it when I hear it 
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 15 2008 at 15:58 |
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Only coincidentally.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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russellk
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Posted: May 14 2008 at 23:51 |
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Sorry, Jammun, but you make it sound so certain when it wasn't. There was absolutely no clear distinction between pop and prog even in the early to mid 70s. It was all mixed together - hard rock, psychedelica, symphonic rock and pop - sometimes on the one album! Yes, there were albums and artists that were pure pop, and others purely something else, but that does not justify a statement asserting that it was like 1 and 0.
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jammun
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Posted: May 14 2008 at 21:10 |
Decidedly back in the day progressive rock was not pop nor was the opposite possible. Part of the problem is that in the early years even progressive rock was not considered progressive, it was considered really good rock by musicians who actually knew how to play their instruments well. Thus in the early-70's a prog-rock enthusiast might be listening to ELP, Tull, KC, Zep, Jeff Beck, Spirit, and a host of other pretty competent bands. This was absolutely opposed (as in 1 and 0) to what was considered pop at the time (say from the Top 40 chart a few pages back, Tony Orlando and Dawn, or Captain and Tennielle). There was no in between area, no gradation between the 0 and 1.
By the mid-70's we ended up with what were essentially pop bands (ABBA, Alan Parsons Project, Al Stewart, Supertramp) incorporating many prog elements into pop songs. I use these bands only as example and don't really care to argue if they are 'prog' or not, as it was at this point that the gradations between the 0 and 1 were introduced. Perhaps they were introduced earlier (e.g., The Beatles, or Pet Sounds, or for that matter Spike Jones). But that seems to be if I recall correctly (and my memory is suspect) that by the late-70's the line between prog and pop had been effectively blurred by such as Eno, Talking Heads, and so on.
It would be interesting to see when that phrase 'progressive rock' was first used and to whom exactly it was applied, as that might tell us when exactly prog came to be seen as a distinct entity from mainstream rock (which, note, is also not pop).
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Avantgardehead
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Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:28 |
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I probably said this before, but no musical genre is exclusive. Anything and everything can be mixed, and that's what makes music awesome.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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micky
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 17:43 |
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of course they are not exclusive... but as we all know.. we sort of all have our personal interpetations of what prog is and is not. Some do believe the prog is some cheerished musical form that can not be tainted by pop. That they are exclusive. Personally I think that is a bunch of hogwash but ...to each his own. Having Xover prog here pretty much puts the stamp.. and legitimizes that notion. After Crossover Prog was introduced here, one of the admins pointed out to me that other sites... groups on their myspace pages now identify themselves as such. Some will disagree... but they are sort of pissing in the wind so to speak... many see it.. and recognize it.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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boo boo
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Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:51 |
I don't think prog and pop are complete contradictions. Theres no such thing as two genres that can't be blended together.
Even in the 70s Yes had some poppy material. Roundabout is actually pretty poppy when you get down to it. I'd certainly say that King Crimsons 80s material such as Discipline was progressive but also poppy to a degree. When you think about it 80s King Crimson basically sounded like a more proggy version of Talking Heads.
i mean crap, if you really think pop has no place in prog, just look up some of the artists Yes have cited as influences. The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, The Byrds, The Who, The Fifth Demension. 
Edited by boo boo - May 13 2008 at 17:00
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Rank1
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Posted: May 12 2008 at 15:52 |
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Progressive Rock to me starts with bands like The Beatles example a song like "Strawberry Fields Forever". An overtly experimetal rock song using Indian elements, Avant, Electronic music with psychedelic pop music. Progressive Rock really starts with bands who used outside rock sources with rock-pop music. Pink Floyd was another band who dabbled of combining pop and experimental music.
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Atkingani
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 20:56 |
Some posts here were hidden in order to avoid argumentation due to a typo.
Let's keep the thread on track, please.
Thanks!
Edited by Atkingani - May 11 2008 at 20:57
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Guigo
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Shakespeare
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 20:41 |
Shakespeare wrote:
Sorry if this has come up before, I don't feel like reading the whole thread.
If pop was prog, it wouldn't be pop, it would be prog, therefore no, pop cannot be prog, unless it is prog.
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Besides the fact that Prog is just a branch of pop music.
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Shakespeare
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 20:38 |
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Sorry if this has come up before, I don't feel like reading the whole thread.
If pop was prog, it wouldn't be pop, it would be prog, therefore no, pop cannot be prog, unless it is prog.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 20:27 |
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Well me too, my father played(s) me Fragile, Yes Album, DSOTM, Meddle, AHM, CTTE, Animals, WYWH, and much of Zappa, so that means I discovered prog at the age of 7 or 8 more or less too. I played Weasels Ripped my Flesh cause the cover.
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Atavachron
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 20:25 |
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^ that's pure baiting
..and I 'discovered' Prog at just about 8 or 9 when I played a dad's copy of Tarkus cause I was intrigued by the coverf (I weas a sci-fi fan) ..I didn't really like or understand it, but I had in fact discovered it
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 19:43 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
And what of confessed 'pop-oriented' artists who produce fresh, innovative music with all the bells and whistles and other signature 'prog rock' qualities? For example, Kate Bush's Seventh Wave, many David Sylvian songs, Cocteau Twins Treasure and Tiny Dynamite period, U2 Boy, Police Ghosts in the Machine. When groups or individuals are experimenting with the latest technology and with concept album themes, and with variable song structures or vocal and instrumental delivery styles (Eno, Fripp, Sylvian, Gabriel, Elizabeth Frazier, etc. etc. etc.!!) to me, that constitutes repeated and careful listening BECAUSE IT IS PROGRESSIVE! |
I believe you're mixoing two different concepts in one sack BrufordFreak:
- progressive (with low case): A an adjective which qualifies the approach of a band or artist towards music, a progressive band not necesaruilly is Profg, for example Cocteau Twin and The Police are not Prog bands.
- Progressive Rock (With low case as any name): A genre that appeared suring the late 60's and developed until today with several characteroistics and frames.
A Prog band doesn't need to experiment with the lates instruments, in 1992 Anglagard refused toi play with any instrument not availlable in the 70's but they are 100% Prog.
On the other hand Stevie Wonder was a mellotron pioneer and not even remotely Prog.
Not even the concept album defines a Prog band, if it was so, The Bee GGees would be here because Odessa.
Iván
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russellk
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 15:46 |
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This is exactly what I meant. People bring up countless examples of songs and albums from that vast blurred area between the two ends of the prog-pop spectrum, and someone tries to fit them in either category. Though the terms Ivan uses are rather fuzzy: 'mainly pop', 'a blend of pop songs with boring prog songs', 'just mainstream'. Ivan, if there was anything like a clear distinction between pop and prog, do you think you would need those extra terms.
Yes, I think there are separate territories in which we'll call a song, album or band 'prog' or 'pop' but that doesn't imply the terms are mutually exclusive. Just because something's distinctive character may be 'prog' doesn't mean it's not also 'pop', and vice versa.
Me, I'm all for flexibility.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
cacho wrote:
I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...
It's a mainstream song in a Prog album, but the track alone is just mainstream, I won't call it POP either, I will call it Rock, has all the Blues structure and jazzy leanings.Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums.
For me, Supertramp shouldn't be here from a start, but they have a few Prog songs in mainly POP albums
Also every Post Hackett album.
For me ATTW3 is POP, Duke is Pop with a few prog tracks and the rest is pure bland POP, I know many will disagree, but that's my honest point of view.
Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...
Yes Talk is a hybrid, I can't say they fit in Prog or POP, The Ladder has some Prog songs and UNION is a blend of Pop songs wih boring prog songs.
Tormato is Prog, bad Prog, but Prog at the end.
Iván
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Fine to me. It convinces me, but I don't agree, if that's fine with you, it's fine with me. As I being pretty much younger than you, there's a really high percent that you're right(not only because you're older, because you lived those years).
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 14:47 |
cacho wrote:
I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...
It's a mainstream song in a Prog album, but the track alone is just mainstream, I won't call it POP either, I will call it Rock, has all the Blues structure and jazzy leanings.
Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums.
For me, Supertramp shouldn't be here from a start, but they have a few Prog songs in mainly POP albums
Also every Post Hackett album.
For me ATTW3 is POP, Duke is Pop with a few prog tracks and the rest is pure bland POP, I know many will disagree, but that's my honest point of view.
Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...
Yes Talk is a hybrid, I can't say they fit in Prog or POP, The Ladder has some Prog songs and UNION is a blend of Pop songs wih boring prog songs.
Tormato is Prog, bad Prog, but Prog at the end.
Iván
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Avantgardehead
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:51 |
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Music isn't exclusive. Anything and everything can be mixed.
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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The Quiet One
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Posted: May 11 2008 at 13:36 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I still believe that when you cross that blurry line, you enter in territory of one or another.
That there are Prog bands with Pop leanings or Prog bands that made Pop tracks, I agree completely, but POP and PROG IMO don't exist simultaneously, or you are in territory of one or the other.
Iván |
I see what you mean... so what is Money by Pink Floyd? I'm thinking on others but of what you said they're prog or pop...
Supertramp's Breakfast in America and Famous last Words are definitly pop prog albums. Also every Post Hackett album. Yes' Talk? Yes Union? Yes The Ladder? Tormato? ...
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Can Pop be Prog?
