The Stranglers - Prog?

Peter wrote: richardh wrote: Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too... I'll put a mention in for Siouxsie And The Banshees as well.There were some decent punk bands ..pity they had such a crappy attitude Yes, some good stuff there, too. Echo and the Bunnymen were another fave of mine. If the Stranglers were in, many others of the era would have to be as well, IMO. I would hazard to guess that a lot of the apparent "attitude" of such bands of that era was "affected" (ie, manufactured) at the urging of the industry, and also by the artists, to give them "cred" and thereby enhance sales. In any case, I just listen to the music -- I didn't regularly read any music press/mags then, and still don't (not as a matter of policy or anything, but good music mags are not found around here, and, in any case, most artists aren't so interesting when off stage, to me).

One of the really odd things about the Stranglers is the kind of "etching" they can leave behind in the bit of your brain that remembers music...

I always remember the music as being fantastic, and Burnel's bass lines especially run through my head whenever I think about their music... but I listened to "No More Heroes" (the album) tonight, and it was so much better than I remembered it being...

Did I ever mention that I met Ian McCulloch (singer of Echo and the Bunnymen) one morning as I was enjoying a nice cup of tea and a sit down at Barriemore Barlowe's kitchen table?

I'll get me coat...

Syzygy wrote: I thought that piece was by Thomas Tallis - I bought a Tallis CD for She Who Must Be Obeyed for Xmas and that contains a jaw droppingly complex 40 piece motet called Spem In Alium. Essential stuff, and I agree that it's rare to hear polyphony of that complexity in prog, GG aside.

You thought right... I wrote Byrd twice, but meant Tallis... to think I actually studied that work in my 2nd year and thought it was by the Byrds...

It's an amazing work to hear a performance of - I first heard it in England's oldest remaining Saxon round church, and the choirs were placed around the circumference of the church. The acoustics were stunning, and the audience was completely immersed in the incredible music.

http://www.audio-b.com/acoustictriangle/venue7.html

A most uplifting experience

Certif1ed wrote: BaldFriede wrote: From the entry on polyphony in Wikipedia: ... The oldest surviving piece of six-part music is the English rota Sumer is icumen in (ca. 1240). (Albright, 2004)     Wikipedia really annoys me sometimes - the Reading Rota, "Sumer is Icumen In" is the very first written example of a Round (like the tunes "London's Burning" or "Frere Jaques"). It is NOT specifically an early example of polyphony - a better example would have been Byrd's 40-part motet "Spem in Alium". The Reading Rota is not written in 6-parts at all, but was conceptualised contrapuntally so that 6 could sing it and join in at regular intervals, building up the round. Wikipedia makes the distinction between Fugue (counterpoint) and polyphony, yet the Round is a primitive and simplified version of the fugue. Marillion's music on "Script..." is an excellent example of both polyphonic and contrapuntal music writing, albeit at a different level to Gentle Giant.

I thought that piece was by Thomas Tallis - I bought a Tallis CD for She Who Must Be Obeyed for Xmas and that contains a jaw droppingly complex 40 piece motet called Spem In Alium. Essential stuff, and I agree that it's rare to hear polyphony of that complexity in prog, GG aside.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: BaldFriede wrote: You must not confuse "polyphony" with "pseudo-polyphony". The latter uses two or more different voices too; the difference, however, is that in the latter these voices are NOT independent of each other and essentially rely on mere chord progression. Pseudo-polyphony indeed often occurs in prog-rock; real polyphony is very rare. Gentle Giant and High Tide are examples for bands who use real polyphony, also Frank Zappa occasionally. Zappa is sometimes very complex and even occasionally uses polytonality (2 or more different scales at the same time). I think you're wrong in your assumption that only a handful of bands use "real" polyphony. Of course doubling a single melody line with diatonically correct notes essentially forms a chord progression. But be honest: Most prog bands of the 70s did much more than that. Consider how melody lines often are contrapuntal to the bass lines for example. And even when you say "the bass doesn't count as a valid example here", Even "standard" prog bands like Camel or borderline prog bands like Kansas use polyphony quite often. Or do you mean that Gentle Giant are simply much better than the other bands - their polyphony is more cunning and sophisticated?

I think BF is simply making the distinction between the pseudo-polyphony of using contrapuntal voice/bass lines with keyboards and guitars simply filling in the harmony, and the more accurate definition of polyphony, where all parts do something very different - something Gentle Giant were exceptional at, and something you can hear fairly frequently in good fusion.

My own definition of Polyphony is along the lines of advanced counterpoint: While it's obvious that "poly" means "many", and "phony" indicates musical "voices", two lines of melody is not enough to qualify - especially when "padded out" with, say, rhythm guitar. Hence my example of the Byrd piece, which is in 40 individual parts (8 choirs of 5 voices each).

In short, there must be more than 2 voices (or instruments), and each voice must have an independent melody line to qualify a piece as truly polyphonic. As I said, a Round does not truly qualify, as there is only one melody line.

Much as I love Camel, the examples of polyphony in their work are pretty much restricted to "The Snow Goose", and even there, it's limited.

I don't know Kansas' back catalogue well enough, but again, there's not a huge amount on "Leftoverture", when you compare them to Gentle Giant.

Gentle Giant wrote many such pieces - my favourite is "On Reflection" which drops into and out of polyphony in a quite incredible way, and uses other contrapuntal techniques, such as canon and fugal writing to great effect. It's not completely polyphonic, but it's a miracle of songwriting!

The title track of "Script..." contains some incredible polyphony which feels so natural that many people dismiss it as somehow simple.

krusty wrote: bobo wrote: to blacksword - try their first two - Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes, and also the live "Stranglers and Friends live at concert". especially listen to "Down in the Sewer" from their first album. if the Stranglers were ever prog for a few minutes, it's in this song. I was going to mention "Down in the Sewer" as well, what an excelent track. I also second the albums mentioned above. I was a fully paid up member of their fan club, I have all the early stuff prior to to Aural Sculpture Picture disc singles, fan club only stuff, saw them dozens of times, etc, etc... but I wouldn't call them prog, I hear a fair amount of influence from the Doors in there music and I don't think the Doors are on here either?? Now might be a bit harder if we were talking about Magazine

I think they sound like the Doors mainly because of Dave Greenfield's style of playing the keyboards. anyway, the Doors had very long tracks on their repetoire as well (the End, When the Music's over, Light My Fire, L.A. Woman etc.), but they were more like jams and solos than a prog-structure.

erik neuteboom wrote: I own a live album featuring Robert Fripp on guitar, using that typical chainsaw sound! That night many guest musicians replaced one of the band members who had to stay in prison! It's an interesting live CD, at this moment I am at my work so I cannot give more details  ..!

yep, that's the one I was talking about earlier. it has a lot of prog guys playing on it - Nik Turner from Hawkwind, Robert Fripp as you mentioned, Peter Hammill from VdGG, Steve Hillage from Gong. actually, it's one of the reasons I got into prog for the first place!

Certif1ed wrote: The Stranglers aren't the only "interesting" punk band - the Damned had an incredibly varied and often psychedelia-influenced output too...

Yep!