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'Selling England' and 'Duke' suite?
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Poll Question: Would 'Selling England' and 'Duke' have benefited from having a suite?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [15.00%]
13 [65.00%]
3 [15.00%]
1 [5.00%]
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Dellinger View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 07 2023 at 21:24
^ Nice. And where can I check that concert? Well, it seems there's something on Youtube. There's a Lyceum concert 1980, and I'm even seeing particularly the duke suit, but in London (also 1980). Let's see how it sounds.
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^They did. As I said above, check Live at Lyceum. Phil explains the story between the tracks, but the suite itself is acknowledged and played in full.
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Points: 12732 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2023 at 23:45
I guess it would have been a sad loss to have had only parts of those Selling England songs instead of the whole thing, so interesting as it might have been, I guess it's better the way the album ended up. As for Duke, I'm not sure it would have worked as a single song within the album, but given how they liked to do Medleys in their concerts, they could actually have disguised their Duke Suit live playing it as a Duke Medley.
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Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I tend to think like Steve Vyzard that Duke would have been better if it had been shorter. Back in the day (when I could be bothered to program a CD player) I would listen to a 36 minute version of Duke which was pretty much the Duke suite plus Man Of Our Times and Misunderstanding. I always thought of that as a suite in some ways as it still follows a narrative of sorts. (someone 'lost' trying to find their way). The rest is just a lot of padding really.

Not then biggest fan of SEBTP nowadays (Epping Forest Angry) but don't see any reason to have a suite. It's kinda of a 3 star album to me and by far the weakest of the most vaunted prog albums from that time. (NC, Foxtrot, Lamb and Trick are all stronger releases IMO)

Voted neither.

TBH, all genesis albums since Foxtrot were above 50 minutes (even Lamb bad 94 minutes over two disc, which is an hefty 47'+ per disc), so I didn't think Duke was especially lengthy (well it is 55', which 90" longer than ATTWT).
However, indeed both of Duke & ATTWT can give the overlong feeling, but it's more to do with the quality of the songwriting. 

I don't think anyone complains that SEBTP  is 53:40 or that W&W is 50:30, because we like/love them both. So if we feel that ATTWT & Duke are, it's because the songs are weaker and album cohesiveness isn't there as much. 


I've always considered ATTWT to be one of Genesis strongest albums from a writing perspective. I don't honestly hear any filler or wasted moments, even FYFM is an okay pop track unlike the filler on Duke. However soundwise less so and it brought nothing knew to the party (although the 'party' was fizzling out at the time and the host was left to put all the bottles in the recycling bin, ok that's a ropey anology for the decline of prog generally in 1978)


Edited by richardh - November 25 2023 at 00:28
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Points: 4091 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 24 2023 at 07:36
I did a playlist with Duke suite - but agree with Manuel SEBTP is perfect— for me the Duke suite songs are the best on the album - a side two of the other songs might sound weak.
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Points: 20248 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2023 at 06:05
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I tend to think like Steve Vyzard that Duke would have been better if it had been shorter. Back in the day (when I could be bothered to program a CD player) I would listen to a 36 minute version of Duke which was pretty much the Duke suite plus Man Of Our Times and Misunderstanding. I always thought of that as a suite in some ways as it still follows a narrative of sorts. (someone 'lost' trying to find their way). The rest is just a lot of padding really.

Not then biggest fan of SEBTP nowadays (Epping Forest Angry) but don't see any reason to have a suite. It's kinda of a 3 star album to me and by far the weakest of the most vaunted prog albums from that time. (NC, Foxtrot, Lamb and Trick are all stronger releases IMO)

Voted neither.

TBH, all genesis albums since Foxtrot were above 50 minutes (even Lamb bad 94 minutes over two disc, which is an hefty 47'+ per disc), so I didn't think Duke was especially lengthy (well it is 55', which 90" longer than ATTWT).
However, indeed both of Duke & ATTWT can give the overlong feeling, but it's more to do with the quality of the songwriting. 

I don't think anyone complains that SEBTP  is 53:40 or that W&W is 50:30, because we like/love them both. So if we feel that ATTWT & Duke are, it's because the songs are weaker and album cohesiveness isn't there as much. 



Edited by Sean Trane - November 23 2023 at 10:37
let's just stay above the moral melee
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keep our sand-castle virtues
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Points: 28054 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2023 at 05:19
I tend to think like Steve Vyzard that Duke would have been better if it had been shorter. Back in the day (when I could be bothered to program a CD player) I would listen to a 36 minute version of Duke which was pretty much the Duke suite plus Man Of Our Times and Misunderstanding. I always thought of that as a suite in some ways as it still follows a narrative of sorts. (someone 'lost' trying to find their way). The rest is just a lot of padding really.

Not then biggest fan of SEBTP nowadays (Epping Forest Angry) but don't see any reason to have a suite. It's kinda of a 3 star album to me and by far the weakest of the most vaunted prog albums from that time. (NC, Foxtrot, Lamb and Trick are all stronger releases IMO)

Voted neither.
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Originally posted by Octopus II Octopus II wrote:

Neither, I like them as they are. Smile


This
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Neither, I like them as they are. Smile
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Points: 3041 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2023 at 00:57
The lads did play the Selling England "suite" live, considering they would play Dancing and then immediately play Cinema Show in '73. This changed after Peter started adding an intro with an explanation of the story of Cinema Show.

The explanation of the Duke suite by Phil can be heard if you watch the Live at Lyceum '80 concert video.


Edited by Awesoreno - November 25 2023 at 00:53
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Points: 13352 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2023 at 22:48
SEBTP is quite a record, hard to improve. Duke, on the other hand, could use some help to make it better, so probably a suite would have been good, depending on how it would have developed. 
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I think each should have been a 4-LP set, with 2 of the LPs being one suite.......Phuck it!
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Points: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2023 at 15:01
The album that would have benefited from a suite was Abacab. The Naminanu/ Dodo/ Lurker/ Submarine suite that was being considered is quite good. Especially if it meant jettisoning the awful Who Dunnit? on the second side and the not much better Like it or Not.

The approximately 16 minute long Naminanu/ Dodo/ Lurker/ Submarine suite to go along with Man on the Corner would have for a good second side to go with a pretty good first side.

I voted neither for this poll.
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Until reading this post, I was completely unaware that Selling England was originally going to have a suite, even though I have a lot of literature about the band's history. I think the album works flawlessly as it is, with the "Citizens of Hope and Glory" theme at both the beginning and end of the album. It's "cyclical".

I was aware of Duke originally having a suite because the band performed it that way on that album's tour. To this day, I've never heard an explanation as to what this suite is actually about, as the lyrics tell a story from a number of different viewpoints.

As to whether they should have included the suites on these albums, I've voted "neither". The band explained that the Duke suite was broken up because it would have made the album "unbalanced": one suite of six connected songs on one side, and six stand-alone songs on the other. I agree with this view, as the track listing on both albums works perfectly (although I still wish "Heathaze" and "Please Don't Ask" would have been excluded from Duke, which runs way too long).

Right before Duke, Mike Rutherford recorded his Smallcreep's Day album, which has a suite on one side, and five stand-alone songs on the other. This album also works perfectly as is, although in the UK, the suite is "side one", while in the USA, the suite is "side two". Of course, after listening to these albums for 35+ years, we become very comfortable with our ingrained listening experiences!
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Points: 51065 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2023 at 13:06
Both. They should have went with their instincts. Ditto to the Naminanu/Dodo/Lurker/Submarine suite idea they had. Part of what's wrong with me is that I have a porch in my stomach and my stomach has too many knees.
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Neither. Totally biased, but I dig both just they way they are.
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Points: 20248 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2023 at 12:58
Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

'Selling England by the Pound Suite' (Comprising Parts of 'Dancing With the Moonlit Knight', 'Cinema Show' and 'Aisle of Plenty')
I. Citizens of Hope and Glory
II. Join the Dance!
III. Britannia's Lullaby
IV. Romeo and Juliet
V. Father Tiresias 
VI. Earth and Sea
VII. Citizens of Hope and Glory (Reprise) / Aisle of Plenty



Never heard of this one (but the Duke suite was indeed in the works), but I like this idea, but not sure about how the tracks would've been reshuffled, though. I guess Firth would've been relegated to the flipside along with the horrible MFM
Though it's hard to believe Epping Forest would have been left out of it (the suite), but in a way, it is its own suite.


.


Edited by Sean Trane - November 23 2023 at 10:38
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Points: 4202 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frets N Worries Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2023 at 11:13
I'm sure as many of you know, Selling England by the Pound and Duke were originally supposed to each have a suite. As I understand it, this is how each of them would've been. (If I got anything wrong, let me know, I'll edit it)

'Selling England by the Pound Suite' (Comprising Parts of 'Dancing With the Moonlit Knight', 'Cinema Show' and 'Aisle of Plenty')
I. Citizens of Hope and Glory
II. Join the Dance!
III. Britannia's Lullaby
IV. Romeo and Juliet
V. Father Tiresias 
VI. Earth and Sea
VII. Citizens of Hope and Glory (Reprise) / Aisle of Plenty


And of Course, Duke's Suite (About 28 Minutes)

I. Behind the Lines
II. Duchess
III. Guide Vocal
IV. Turn it On Again
V. Duke's Travels
VI. Duke's End

Personally, I think the track list for Selling England by the Pound is perfect, but I think Duke's suite could've been amazing. As far as I'm aware, there were no other planned and not fulfilled suites in the Genesis catalouge. 

Thoughts?
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