What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"?

chopper wrote: Many years ago someone on PA posted that the appreciation of music was objective.

Music itself is objectively music (tones arranged in deliberate patterns) unless it is objectively not music (un-deliberate patterns, noise).

But I would say an argument could be made that music appreciation is both sub- and objective.   Unfortunately I don't have the time to do that at present.

Between 2010 and 2019 I witnessed a lot of controlling people buying musicians to play a specific style of music to supposedly appeal to the majority of people who drink and dance to what we once knew as Country Music but is now a big invention called Modern Country.

It's liking is of course subjective to people but because of its investment by business tycoons or the local tri state vicinity Middle class Federal Express guy wants to back his wife to sing Country and by doing so attempts to bargain with seasoned musicians by paying them extra out of his pocket as opposed to even considering a bar owner someone who is willing to pay a fair price for talented musicians playing Modern Country.

Most musicians are thinking about the money. With this guy paying more out of his pocket than any band you could sit in with in the tri state area then why consider anything else?

Business and music are not a healthy combination. People today will invest in Modern Country music on a lower scale like bars, rodeos and festivals and present it as something way better than what it's real value is...regardless if music is subjective or not. In a very persistent and pushy narcissist way they will promote that music and overate it's value.

Musicians may get the offer and quit the band they're in just for better profit. They were perhaps playing in a band that covered some Dance Music but also a few Fusion instrumentals to make the gig more interesting but the Modern Country gig pays a hundred dollars more. They tell the Modern Country band..."I don't like this guy...he plays old sh*t" "How much does it pay?" " A hundred more?..I'll be there"

This made me feel ill...and I walked away from it in 2019 . First of all...in that business it's like putting music in a grinder. Music is subjective and if you are a seasoned player and you play music which you personally dislike for great money...and if you have a heart...you will eventually turn your back on it. Turn away from it...otherwise be miserable for years. Spiritually unhappy. Following instructions from narcissist band leaders who invest in one path. A limited path...and in that environment people tend to act egocentric because they want to sugarcoat product . Then the music suffers. The music suffers anyway. It's bad enough..we don't need more dictatorship with manipulative concepts.

Edited by David_D - July 05 2024 at 04:12

Hrychu wrote: I don't have a grudge against the 5 star system but IMHO it should be purely optional.

The 5 star system is a good one . The only way to really tell if the reviewer enjoyed the ride... or not. 

Edited by Valdez - June 22 2024 at 08:18

Lewian wrote: Apart from the more general topic of subjectivity and objectivity, in music there is an irreducible amount of "magic", i.e., subjective factors that you can't explain. Certain melodies, voices, rhythms, sounds resonate with some people and not with others. One can speculate about explanations (experiences as a child and whatever) but ultimately we will never know. And this is "very* important. Of course you can talk about professionalism, how well people know to play their instruments, novelty, measurable complexity and the like, but that's only a small part of what makes music appealing.

Obviously some of the most simplistic music is the most beautiful and affective. ..but a guitar player that doesn't care about dynamics or the least bit of technique and is sloppy and has no finesse...certainly doesn't belong in a band like YES or King Crimson.

If they do in fact sound choppy and do things like cheat on their chords they shouldn't be in a Genesis tribute band or even a Top 40 cover band. Sadly they sometimes are in a Top 40 cover band and are an embarrassment to good musicians who work very hard to be the opposite of that and quite an entertainment source for drunks 🥴

Apart from the more general topic of subjectivity and objectivity, in music there is an irreducible amount of "magic", i.e., subjective factors that you can't explain. Certain melodies, voices, rhythms, sounds resonate with some people and not with others. One can speculate about explanations (experiences as a child and whatever) but ultimately we will never know. And this is "very* important. Of course you can talk about professionalism, how well people know to play their instruments, novelty, measurable complexity and the like, but that's only a small part of what makes music appealing.

I worked in several bar bands ( cover bands) in South Jersey over the last 20 years that were totally unprofessional and amateur sounding. Somebody always says.."Music is subjective and that's your opinion"

It's not my opinion. It's a fact. A person may say..."It is your opinion that those bands sucked" I say..."No its just a fact that they do" A person will say..."Compared to what?" I say...,"Compared to all the professional bands I worked with in the 70s and 80s " therefore there is a difference between an opinion and a fact and you don't get it"

It just grinds on and on . It's a redundancy. People have a tendency to bring this sh*t up to me when I'm out in public. For whatever reason? It's a South Jersey mentality? It's Vineland or Millville New Jersey mentality?

I could just say "Okay have it your way" That would equal wanting to hire and pay a plumber to not fix the problem you're having with your pipes. You don't want a plumber who fixes the problem ...you want a plumber you can't fix the problem. You don't want a doctor that finds something wrong ...you want a doctor who says your fine when clearly you are not. You don't want a drummer with a good meter ..you want a drummer who can't keep time and fluctuates all over the place. You don't want guitar players and keyboard players who play the right chords...no you want guitar players and keyboard players who play the wrong chords..because music is subjective and its just your opinion that they're playing all the wrong notes...OK then..have it your way

Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - August 31 2023 at 22:06

Lewian wrote: I prophesy disaster wrote:    I acknowledge that solipsism is ultimately correct, but it is also ultimately unhelpful. How can one make sense of the world if one believes that the world doesn't exist? Therefore, one can assert that an objective reality does exist and that it can be examined by the senses, by scientific instruments, and by mathematics. In particular, mathematics can reveal the intrinsic orderliness of reality beyond the limitations of empiricism and manifest the objective nature of reality. To say that you don't have objective access to the world is not the same as saying/believing that the world doesn't exist. I for sure believe that the world exists. The only thing I say is that it is ultimately inaccessible how our perceptions are related to how it "really" is. I'm also fine saying that for many tasks we just experience that it works well to treat the world as if it were just like we perceive it (or scientific theories etc.). And maybe it is. We can't know. But we don't need this knowledge to live.