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    Posted: August 09 2021 at 02:28
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

Where did sampling come into this? I thought it was just that Downes had mistakenly used someone else's melody?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 00:48
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Talking about casual listeners doesn't help an argument considering they don't care about a lot of stuff. Casual music listeners are naturally not inquisitive about music. And that's fine. Someone who knows a lot about hip hop, on the other hand, would naturally know about samples and where they come from.

Obviously someone who knows a lot about hip hop knows how samples work, I'm not disagreeing about that, just that I think there are more people that don't know about that than those who know. Maybe I am wrong, but it's just my opinion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 21:14
Talking about casual listeners doesn't help an argument considering they don't care about a lot of stuff. Casual music listeners are naturally not inquisitive about music. And that's fine. Someone who knows a lot about hip hop, on the other hand, would naturally know about samples and where they come from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 18:02
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 

False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious.  I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from.


I know there are videos and people that are curious about samples but the casual, average listener, I very much doubt it. Some of them don't even know what samples are and how they are used. 

Well generalizations don't do any argument any favors, but while I might be inclined to agree a lot of people don't particularly care to figure out where every sample comes from once I think about just how many different people listen to hip hop, I do think most people who have been listening for a long enough time are totally well aware what a sample is and how a sample gets used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 18:00
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Kanye West's Power is actually a sample that's been reproduced. ;p But anyway, IMO quoting is a form of sampling. However, that's debatable

If by reproduced you mean had extra effects added on to it so it fits in aesthetically with the rest of the song, sure. But that's definitely Greg Lake's voice and the drums fills from the original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 16:32
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 

False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious.  I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from.


I know there are videos and people that are curious about samples but you casual, average listener, I very much doubt it. Some of them don't even know what samples are and how they are used. 

I doubt that's relevant here because neither will the average Yes listener worry about what Monkman did 150 years ago and how that's related to the Ice Bridge. If Yes have any "average listeners" left, that is. Tongue

I think I know 5 people in real life that know who Yes is and two of them because of me. LOL What does it mean? what does it mean? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 16:27
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 

False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious.  I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from.


I know there are videos and people that are curious about samples but you casual, average listener, I very much doubt it. Some of them don't even know what samples are and how they are used. 

I doubt that's relevant here because neither will the average Yes listener worry about what Monkman did 150 years ago and how that's related to the Ice Bridge. If Yes have any "average listeners" left, that is. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 16:24
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Kanye West's Power is actually a sample that's been reproduced. ;p But anyway, IMO quoting is a form of sampling. However, that's debatable

Conscious sampling/quoting is one thing, accidentally using somebody else's composition is quite another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 15:19
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 

False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious.  I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from.


I know there are videos and people that are curious about samples but the casual, average listener, I very much doubt it. Some of them don't even know what samples are and how they are used. 


Edited by Cristi - August 08 2021 at 16:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 14:06
Kanye West's Power is actually a sample that's been reproduced. ;p But anyway, IMO quoting is a form of sampling. However, that's debatable

Edited by Hrychu - August 08 2021 at 14:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 13:58
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 

False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious.  I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from.

I definitely disagree with Hrychu here. Ice Bridge doesn't sample that theme song. Sampling involves taking a clip of the original recording and playing that exact clip as a part of your new song. Check out Kanye West's Power for a familiar example.  If I were to spin this Ice Bridge case more positively, I'd say Geoff Downes is quoting that other song. Quoting is a long tradition going back to jazz and improvised soloing. Rather than taking the actual recording of another song and inserting it (often manipulated) into your new song, quoting involves playing a lick or a riff from another song on your own instrument in the context of your new song. Usually quotation isn't used to form the backbone of the song, but rather for melodic intrigue on top of an original song structure.  Since Ice Bridge seems to use its quote for more than a bit of melodic interest, and especially since Downes is denying having plagiarized the other song, I'm going to guess it's more a case of unconscious copying. Downes was probably exposed to the song, even briefly, back when that TV show was airing, and the melody must have embedded itself somewhere deep in his memory without him remembering where it came from. Is that plagiarism? Maybe technically, but it doesn't have the same malicious intent that plagiarism does. 

Anyway it's not a sample, sorry for the rant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 12:20
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   

I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 12:12
I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rottenprogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2021 at 15:10
I listened to the new track with an open mind and honestly really enjoyed it. Should be interesting to see how it fits with the rest of the album. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2021 at 06:24
I know it is maybe more interesting to talk about Genesis than about Yes these days, but let's not make this a Genesis thread. Regarding playing with "other" musicians, you all know that Yes played with themselves - I mean, with Yes. I'm referring to the Union tour... They also played with a symphonic orchestra during the Symphonic Live tour (one of their best live shows I've witnessed!)...
Personally, I think that the fact that a band is interpreting (or reinterpreting) their music with other musicians is not an issue; the quality of the performance is, though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2021 at 02:29
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^Let's be honest with ourselves here...Genesis and the plethora of backup musicians/singers sound good. When last did Genesis only, play live?

I count 10 musicians on stage from this 2020 video.


[EDIT]
Opps, just realized this was a Phil Collins Video not Genesis.
However, a search showed 5 musicians on stage for the Genesis rehearsals.
Still...

5 musicians on stage for the upcoming Genesis tour sounds about right to me. Phil can't play drums anymore, so obviously they need a fourth guy to drum (plus they always had a fourth guy for drumming after Phil took over vocals, so that's nothing new). The fifth guy I'm sure is an all around auxiliary player, probably to help Mike with his dual bass and guitar duties on songs that might require both simultaneously (such as pretty much all of the Hackett era material... which gives me a lot of hope I hope isn't misplaced). Plenty of bands tour with an auxiliary guy anyway. Queen did it in the 80s so Freddie could do more frontmaning, Muse have done it since the BH&R album... it's not something I really mind. 10 folks on stage seems like a stretch for Genesis. For Phil solo, sure. After all solo musicians have the privilege of hiring whoever they want for whatever they want. Phil can have a tamborine specialist if he so desires, but for Genesis the personnel is pretty well defined. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2021 at 21:33
Originally posted by Cboi Sandlin Cboi Sandlin wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Yes wasn't successful musically in bringing in many mediocre players and letting them take over the band--say what you want about Genesis they never did this.


Intriguing comment, and I tend to agree!  Which members of Yes do you consider to have been "mediocre?" 

I'll start = Benoit David.

Madiocre? Well I don’t know about that but I’m sure they’re better musicians than you are 😂.

I'm only a hobby musician and don't profess to be a professional.  I warm up with Yes/Chris Squire on bass however.  Very challenging to play.

However, the output of Yes has been putrid for ages, something they are doing is wrong.  There is better talent available than David, Davidson, Downes etc. but Howe won't hear of it.  




Edited by cstack3 - August 04 2021 at 21:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cboi Sandlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2021 at 20:37
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Yes wasn't successful musically in bringing in many mediocre players and letting them take over the band--say what you want about Genesis they never did this.


Intriguing comment, and I tend to agree!  Which members of Yes do you consider to have been "mediocre?" 

I'll start = Benoit David.

Madiocre? Well I don’t know about that but I’m sure they’re better musicians than you are 😂.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cboi Sandlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2021 at 20:34
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Yes wasn't successful musically in bringing in many mediocre players and letting them take over the band--say what you want about Genesis they never did this.


Intriguing comment, and I tend to agree!  Which members of Yes do you consider to have been "mediocre?" 

I'll start = Benoit David.


No, Genesis didn't bring in many mediocre players and let them take over the band; on the contrary, they became far more mediocre than Yes could ever be....and without any assistance.

No they are still super skilled. They may not be making prog rock anymore, but they are still high quality musicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2021 at 19:51
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Yes wasn't successful musically in bringing in many mediocre players and letting them take over the band--say what you want about Genesis they never did this.

Intriguing comment, and I tend to agree!  Which members of Yes do you consider to have been "mediocre?" 

I'll start = Benoit David.

No, Genesis didn't bring in many mediocre players and let them take over the band; on the contrary, they became far more mediocre than Yes could ever be....and without any assistance.
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