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YES Ice Bridge |
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chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20032 |
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Where did sampling come into this? I thought it was just that Downes had mistakenly used someone else's melody?
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45685 |
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Obviously someone who knows a lot about hip hop knows how samples work, I'm not disagreeing about that, just that I think there are more people that don't know about that than those who know. Maybe I am wrong, but it's just my opinion.
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Awesoreno ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 3079 |
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Talking about casual listeners doesn't help an argument considering they don't care about a lot of stuff. Casual music listeners are naturally not inquisitive about music. And that's fine. Someone who knows a lot about hip hop, on the other hand, would naturally know about samples and where they come from.
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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Well generalizations don't do any argument any favors, but while I might be inclined to agree a lot of people don't particularly care to figure out where every sample comes from once I think about just how many different people listen to hip hop, I do think most people who have been listening for a long enough time are totally well aware what a sample is and how a sample gets used.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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If by reproduced you mean had extra effects added on to it so it fits in aesthetically with the rest of the song, sure. But that's definitely Greg Lake's voice and the drums fills from the original.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45685 |
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I think I know 5 people in real life that know who Yes is and two of them because of me.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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I doubt that's relevant here because neither will the average Yes listener worry about what Monkman did 150 years ago and how that's related to the Ice Bridge. If Yes have any "average listeners" left, that is.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15151 |
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Conscious sampling/quoting is one thing, accidentally using somebody else's composition is quite another.
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45685 |
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I know there are videos and people that are curious about samples but the casual, average listener, I very much doubt it. Some of them don't even know what samples are and how they are used.
Edited by Cristi - August 08 2021 at 16:29 |
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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Kanye West's Power is actually a sample that's been reproduced. ;p But anyway, IMO quoting is a form of sampling. However, that's debatable
Edited by Hrychu - August 08 2021 at 14:07 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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False, there are plenty of websites dedicated to finding out where samples come from, such as the sample of Dancing With The Moonlit Knight that provides the basic backing track to OutKast's Spottieottiedopaliscious. I've also seen plenty of YouTube videos and Spotify playlists comparing songs that sue samples with the songs they sample. People do care where the samples come from. I definitely disagree with Hrychu here. Ice Bridge doesn't sample that theme song. Sampling involves taking a clip of the original recording and playing that exact clip as a part of your new song. Check out Kanye West's Power for a familiar example. If I were to spin this Ice Bridge case more positively, I'd say Geoff Downes is quoting that other song. Quoting is a long tradition going back to jazz and improvised soloing. Rather than taking the actual recording of another song and inserting it (often manipulated) into your new song, quoting involves playing a lick or a riff from another song on your own instrument in the context of your new song. Usually quotation isn't used to form the backbone of the song, but rather for melodic intrigue on top of an original song structure. Since Ice Bridge seems to use its quote for more than a bit of melodic interest, and especially since Downes is denying having plagiarized the other song, I'm going to guess it's more a case of unconscious copying. Downes was probably exposed to the song, even briefly, back when that TV show was airing, and the melody must have embedded itself somewhere deep in his memory without him remembering where it came from. Is that plagiarism? Maybe technically, but it doesn't have the same malicious intent that plagiarism does. Anyway it's not a sample, sorry for the rant.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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Cristi ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 45685 |
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I don't think hip-hop fans care (or know) where the samples come from.
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5695 |
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I wonder why sampling (in this case mistakingly called plagiarism) is hated by prog rock fans yet loved by hip hop fans.
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
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Rottenprogger ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 13 2021 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 249 |
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I listened to the new track with an open mind and honestly really enjoyed it. Should be interesting to see how it fits with the rest of the album.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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I know it is maybe more interesting to talk about Genesis than about Yes these days, but let's not make this a Genesis thread. Regarding playing with "other" musicians, you all know that Yes played with themselves - I mean, with Yes. I'm referring to the Union tour... They also played with a symphonic orchestra during the Symphonic Live tour (one of their best live shows I've witnessed!)... Personally, I think that the fact that a band is interpreting (or reinterpreting) their music with other musicians is not an issue; the quality of the performance is, though.
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Sacro_Porgo ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 15 2019 Location: Cygnus Status: Offline Points: 2062 |
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5 musicians on stage for the upcoming Genesis tour sounds about right to me. Phil can't play drums anymore, so obviously they need a fourth guy to drum (plus they always had a fourth guy for drumming after Phil took over vocals, so that's nothing new). The fifth guy I'm sure is an all around auxiliary player, probably to help Mike with his dual bass and guitar duties on songs that might require both simultaneously (such as pretty much all of the Hackett era material... which gives me a lot of hope I hope isn't misplaced). Plenty of bands tour with an auxiliary guy anyway. Queen did it in the 80s so Freddie could do more frontmaning, Muse have done it since the BH&R album... it's not something I really mind. 10 folks on stage seems like a stretch for Genesis. For Phil solo, sure. After all solo musicians have the privilege of hiring whoever they want for whatever they want. Phil can have a tamborine specialist if he so desires, but for Genesis the personnel is pretty well defined.
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Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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cstack3 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 7412 |
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I'm only a hobby musician and don't profess to be a professional. I warm up with Yes/Chris Squire on bass however. Very challenging to play. However, the output of Yes has been putrid for ages, something they are doing is wrong. There is better talent available than David, Davidson, Downes etc. but Howe won't hear of it. Edited by cstack3 - August 04 2021 at 21:34 |
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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Cboi Sandlin ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 25 2021 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 461 |
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Madiocre? Well I don’t know about that but I’m sure they’re better musicians than you are 😂. |
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Cboi Sandlin ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 25 2021 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 461 |
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No they are still super skilled. They may not be making prog rock anymore, but they are still high quality musicians. |
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13228 |
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No, Genesis didn't bring in many mediocre players and let them take over the band; on the contrary, they became far more mediocre than Yes could ever be....and without any assistance.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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