Nature and Organisation for Prog Folk - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Sorry about the delay, but I have added N&O Gordy http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=12135
But not the albums yet. If you would like to add the albums, Gordy, that would be great, otherwise I will work on that on another day.

I didn't even change your bio to add a why this must be included in PR, as it looks so good as is. If you want any changes to the artist page, let me know.

kenethlevine wrote:

any word on this in PR Greg?

Yeah, it should be good to go re the initial suggestion. Just Gordy’s last post as more to consider gave me pause and we have not evaluated more than was initially suggested. I have been planning to add it in a couple of weeks or so. Not hard, especially if just the more basic addition, just want to deal with some other things first.

Keeping my fingers crossed N&O gain traction in PR.

If we consider them under Cashmore's given name, he stands to be considered by Eclectic once more. Addressing his discography in chronological order we have a wide confluence of styles:

1986: Nature and Organisation - Third Terminal Position (industrial - technically Progressive Electronic)

1994: Nature and Organisation - Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude / A Dozen Summers Against the World (neoclassical/neofolk - I still stand by their eligibility for Prog Folk)

1998: Nature and Organisation - Death in a Snow Leopard Winter (neoclassical - perhaps PF but also maybe Post/Math?)

1999: Michael Cashmore / Current 93 / Christoph Heemann (MC contributes three instrumental folk/post-rock adjacent pieces to this three-way split)

2006: Michael Cashmore - Sleep England (instrumental folk/medieval pieces)

2007: Michael Cashmore - The Snow Abides EP (neoclassical/post-rock in the vein of Snow Leopard Winter but with vocals by Anohni)

2011: Michael Cashmore/Marc Almond - Feasting With Panthers (MC composed and performed all the music around digital files of Almond's voice, a hybrid of his classical-inspired style with the most explicit art rock idioms found in his discography - maybe Crossover?)

2017: Nature and Organisation - A Dozen Winters Against the World / Universal Death Stream (Progressive Electronic/post-rock hybrid, in tandem with MC's so-called "transformation" period, where he started wearing wigs and painting his face like Bowie)

2019-2021: Michael Cashmore - The Doctrine Of Transformation Through Love I + II, The Night Has Rushed In (very recognisably Progressive Electronic, in the style of countless faceless post-Berlin School artists who litter the archives)

Edited by Gordy - February 15 2022 at 21:50

Just got caught up. Thanks, Greg, and feel free to add to the bio in any way you deem fit should they pass. Will they go to PF for Hugues' final evaluation if they don't make it in Prog-Related?

I've also been considering if they should be accepted under Michael Cashmore's name, as for a time his only other material were a couple EPs and an LP which weren't too dissimilar from Nature and Organisation/Current 93's approach. However, the past five years have seen him enter his "midlife crisis" stage of electronic and darkwave experimentation, which may make the classification process difficult once again.

Edited by Gordy - February 15 2022 at 17:07

Logan wrote:

We know N&O is Current 93 related (Beauty Reaps the Blood of Solitude is similar to Thunder Perfect Mind / Of Ruine or Some Blazing Starre period to me) so I would be willing to suggest it for Prog Related based on BRtBoS particularly). And I could add it if accepted there as we have an excellent bio from Gordy already (I would want to add to it).

I'd be fine with that

TCat wrote:

I have to say that I agree with nick and Gordy that N&O belong somewhere among the genres of ProgArchives, and I also understand the confusion and doubt of some members whether it belongs here. I'm not sure where it would end up in the whole scheme of things, but it does need to be evaluated. Having listened to a lot of Current 93 material, there are several place that project could go, but it ended up in Progressive Folk and fits there probably better than anywhere else, mainly because of the subject matter more than the style. N&O would fit right there in that same pocket. Both projects definitely experiment with music styles, but seem to be rooted more in the Progressive Folk subsection more than anywhere else.

If the Prog Folk team doesn't want to take it, I say maybe I should submit it to Eclectic first and see where it goes from there. What does everyone else think?

nick_h_nz wrote:

This is undoubtedly one of the problems with PA, as because the collaborators change over time, there ends up with a lack of consistency not just over whether or not something is considered prog “enough” for the site, but where it fits in the site.

There is no doubt in my mind that N&O belongs in the same genre as Current 93. So if N&O are not prog folk, how do the present prog folk collaborators feel about Current 93? Would they have made it into prof folk? These questions are somewhat rhetorical, because not only are there not necessarily easy answers, but they are also somewhat irrelevant.

When it comes down it, so long as a band is prog “enough” for inclusion in PA, I don’t think the genre is necessarily that important. There are numerous bands and artists in PA whose genre is, at best, questionable.

....

I can definitely understand why Gordy has put N&O up for prog folk; and I can also understand Hugues having reservations. Ultimately, so long as N&O are included in PA, it becomes a moot point. But in the meantime, they need to be evaluated by a team. It’s “complicated” submissions like this that make me wish that more collaborator discussions took place in these submission posts (which, as Greg pointed out in another post like this, used to be the norm). Unfortunately it seems a lot of collaborators “ignore” submissions until they formally come to the team for evaluation. I don’t think this is done out of laziness, so much as this is just now seen as the standard way of doing things. The previous, more public, way of discussing submissions before they were taken away by one team for evaluation definitely does have advantages, in my opinion.

I guess it comes down o if X is in XYZprog and then why shouldn't Y be?

Yes both projects belong somewhere on PA, C93 having some "folk" contents, but IMHO, not the biggest part of it. TBH, I really would like to get rid of Current 93 to another genre. Yes, sure it's got folk elements - whereas N&O haven't got any at all, IMHO.

As for Cashmore and his multiple solo/project mixture, it's quite confusing. the are two N&O album, plus an archive album. We could look into Cashmore as an entry in itself, but based on the two N&O albums (declared as such), I don't see this N&O project as PF if you consider music alone.

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

I've asked Hugues to reevaluate

The eclectic team has rejected them, with most members being of the opinion that if N&O belongs anywhere on the site it should be with prog folk, and if the folk team won't accept it then it has no place on this site. In my personal view, this project borders on too many different subgenres to comfortably sit in one of them specifically but at the same time isn't quite "progressive" enough to be considered eclectic prog. I obviously won't protest if the prog folk team wants to reconsider their decision, although I'm not sure if the rules allow that, strictly speaking.

Freelance composer, accepting commissions | Bandcamp page

^ I would happily be a floater, I’d such a thing ever came about. It’s a good idea. 👍🏻

Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect

I think that 1983 album was what threw me, but I had voted yes. We don't have a tiebreaker anymore because Bob hasn't been active for a few years. I'd love to have a preferably younger person to join prog folk to give the team 3 active people again as I think fewer proposed entries would stall

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