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Progbear 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2005
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 139
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 Topic: ’Duke’ By Genesis
Posted: October 26 2005 at 00:38 |
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I think all the albums up to and including Genesis had at least
something to recommend them. And I think Duke is the best of
their trio albums by a pretty wide margin. ATTW3 shows a band
floundering, clearly burned out on the old style of music they had been
making (the overlong and repetitious “Burning Rope” the best/worst
example) and unsure on where to go from there. It just sounds like a
mishmash of styles, like an pverproduced demo tape. It has its moments,
but doesn't hold together well as a proper album.
Duke on the other hand is a solid album. Yes, it’s more
song-oriented, but what songs! I’d say the sappy love ballads (“Please
Don’t Ask” and “Alone Again”) are the only throwaways, the rest of the
album is first-rate. More of a stripped-down and “modern” feel, but
there’s still just enough prog/fusion influence to keep my interest
through to the end.
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[IMG] http://www.denness.net/rpi/u/Progbear/fs/8/w/500/cp/2/s/5/si g.png">
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Kineto-Zetetics
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 19 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 25
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 04:40 |
 Blacksword wrote:
For me this was the last great Genesis album. A prog album, but with a few unpleasant indicators of what was to come. Do you guys like this album, or is it too pop for you?
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I agree with you. It contained the last great solos from Banks and still had many of the hallmarks of the previous 3 albums (e.g. Taurus pedals used lavishly).
The tour was fantastic as was the 2 day que for tickets.
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Kineto-Zetetics
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rockandrail
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2005
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 310
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 03:49 |
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While "And then there were three" was a somewhat insipid and quiet symphonic pop album with little relation to anything the band had done before, "Duke" was a successful attempt at "modernizing" the Genesis' sound while keeping the soul of the band. Not all the album is prog but the suite "Duke's Travel - Dukes's End" surely is and of the best quality. I whish they had kept following that way, intelligently mixing straightforward pop tunes for money and modern prog epics for our enjoyment. Unfortunately they did'nt.
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Pierre R, the man who lost his signature
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Ray Lomas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 187
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 03:38 |
Duke is a great Genesis album IMO. 
There are few pop songs, but I like all of them too. Remember, that
there were poppy songs in the Gabriel-era Genesis albums too (More Fool
Me, Counting Out Time, ...)
In my opinion, Duke is easily the best post-70s Genesis albums. My favourite tracks are Behind The Lines, Heathaze, Turn It On Again, Cul-De-Sac and the grand end: Duke's Travels and Duke's End.
richardh wrote:
Anyway I'm interested to know what people think of
the concept of this album.I've always thought it was about themselves
as a band.They actually seem to be writing their own obituary as a prog
band..at least that is what the lyrics come across to me as especially
on 'Duchess'.I wonder if anyone else sees it that way?! |
If I remember correctly, Duke was made during the time Phil was going
on with his first divorce. So, I always thought it was heavily inspired
by this. But your theory is intresting, the lyrics of Duchess really
fit to that theory.
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 03:04 |
Orbert wrote:
Kid-A wrote:
Orbert wrote:
SlipperFink wrote:
"Turn it on" is the only hit radio single largely in 5/4 in the history of
radio(as far as I'm aware). |
"Livin' in the Past" by Jethro Tull was in 5/4. So was "Take Five" by The Dave Brubeck Quartet. Both of these received significant radio play, though it was quite a long time ago.
"Turn It On Again" probably wins the award for weirdest "pop" time signature, but isn't is 5/4; it's in 13/4. Alternating measures of 6/4 + 7/4. The chorus and breaks are straight 4/4, though.
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13/8 i think
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Maybe. And I'll give you that 13/4 versus 13/8 is usually just a matter of "how you count it". But in this case, since it's already a complex time sig, why not just give the quarter note the beat? If you call it 13/8, then those droning fifths and the hi-hat taps are slow sixteenths. If you have the choice between a steady quarter note and a slow eighth note and either one could be the beat, why needlessly complicate things?
Here's how I hear it (this will be ugly, but hopefully will get the point across):
(one) All I need is a TV show (six)
That and the radio (six seven)
(one two) Down on my luck again (six)
Down on my luck again (six seven)
And then it goes into straight four. 4/8 versus 4/4 is similarly open to debate, I suppose, but if the hook and refrain are both 4/4, then the verse is 13/4, not 13/8.
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I would concur with 13/4, as anything/8 is compound time - hence 13/4 would actually give a 4 1/3 beats to the bar feel, and would probably include a lot of runs or movement that gives the feeling of triplets.
Since the hi-hats give a feeling of 16ths, and there is an overriding feeling of "4's" to the piece, heavily underlined by the intro "1, 2, 3, 4", that is why I think it's in /4 time.
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: October 24 2005 at 18:27 |
Mark me down as another one who prefers Duke and Abacab to ATTWT. Actually, I prefer them both to Nursery Cryme, an overrated Genesis album if there ever was one. If ATTWT was indicative of the kind of music that trio Genesis was going to make if they continued to try and have it both ways, I'm glad they embraced a new style and went in a different direction with Duke.
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16435
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Posted: October 24 2005 at 17:29 |
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I had just bought Duke the other day, its really not all that bad.. A decent album, but however compared to Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme or Selling England by the Pound, this album was a joke.
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Orbert
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 29 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 51
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Posted: October 24 2005 at 17:18 |
Kid-A wrote:
Orbert wrote:
SlipperFink wrote:
"Turn it on" is the only hit radio single largely in 5/4 in the history of
radio(as far as I'm aware). |
"Livin' in the Past" by Jethro Tull was in 5/4. So was "Take Five" by The Dave Brubeck Quartet. Both of these received significant radio play, though it was quite a long time ago.
"Turn It On Again" probably wins the award for weirdest "pop" time signature, but isn't is 5/4; it's in 13/4. Alternating measures of 6/4 + 7/4. The chorus and breaks are straight 4/4, though.
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13/8 i think
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Maybe. And I'll give you that 13/4 versus 13/8 is usually just a matter of "how you count it". But in this case, since it's already a complex time sig, why not just give the quarter note the beat? If you call it 13/8, then those droning fifths and the hi-hat taps are slow sixteenths. If you have the choice between a steady quarter note and a slow eighth note and either one could be the beat, why needlessly complicate things?
Here's how I hear it (this will be ugly, but hopefully will get the point across):
(one) All I need is a TV show (six)
That and the radio (six seven)
(one two) Down on my luck again (six)
Down on my luck again (six seven)
And then it goes into straight four. 4/8 versus 4/4 is similarly open to debate, I suppose, but if the hook and refrain are both 4/4, then the verse is 13/4, not 13/8.
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In and around the lake...
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Kid-A
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 613
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Posted: October 21 2005 at 18:19 |
Orbert wrote:
SlipperFink wrote:
"Turn it on" is the only hit radio single largely in 5/4 in the history of
radio(as far as I'm aware). |
"Livin' in the Past" by Jethro Tull was in 5/4. So was "Take Five" by The Dave Brubeck Quartet. Both of these received significant radio play, though it was quite a long time ago.
"Turn It On Again" probably wins the award for weirdest "pop" time signature, but isn't is 5/4; it's in 13/4. Alternating measures of 6/4 + 7/4. The chorus and breaks are straight 4/4, though.
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13/8 i think
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693
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Posted: October 21 2005 at 03:35 |
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I come down firmly on the 'pro' Duke side of the fence (I even forgive them for the use of a cheesy 1980s drum machine); not to everyone's taste, certainly, but still containing enough powerful compositions to rank Duke up there with their finest work. Dukes Travels/Dukes End (with the reprise of 'Guide Vocal') - majestic.
My only reservation is that when Banks & Rutherford heard the initial demo of 'Misunderstanding', they should have taken Collins out the back, shot him, then called Hackett & begged his forgiveness.
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: October 20 2005 at 21:41 |
PUKE is not my cup of tea, but still is partially decent.
Iván
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Big Ears
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 08 2005
Location: Hants, England
Status: Offline
Points: 727
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Posted: October 20 2005 at 11:30 |
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I lost interest when Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel left the group. Phil Collins is a very good drummer and sang good second vocals with Gabriel, but I do not want to hear his solo stuff. I did like Calling All Stations and I believe the Ray Wilson Genesis should have persisted.
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transend
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 876
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Posted: October 17 2005 at 23:49 |
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I have always loved 'Duke'....many good songs, especially the starting trio and ending songs..I also love Heathaze, cul de sac and Please dont ask..all good songs.
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Orbert
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 29 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 51
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Posted: October 17 2005 at 16:18 |
SlipperFink wrote:
"Turn it on" is the only hit radio single largely in 5/4 in the history of
radio(as far as I'm aware). |
"Livin' in the Past" by Jethro Tull was in 5/4. So was "Take Five" by The Dave Brubeck Quartet. Both of these received significant radio play, though it was quite a long time ago.
"Turn It On Again" probably wins the award for weirdest "pop" time signature, but isn't is 5/4; it's in 13/4. Alternating measures of 6/4 + 7/4. The chorus and breaks are straight 4/4, though.
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In and around the lake...
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: October 16 2005 at 13:10 |
I like Duke a lot. Musically I'm not a big fan of Turn It On Again, though I still like it and most certainly the album doesn't deserve to be bashed at all: it's a very progressive album, lots of new things happening, great musicianship, lots of "soul" and good compositions.
From a musical point of view, Behind The Lines, Duchess, Guide Vocal, Heathaze, Cul-De-Sac, Duke's Travels and Duke's End belong to the best tracks Genesis ever did, and that's 7 tracks on one album!
So  and  and !
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Prosciutto
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 23 2005
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 123
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Posted: October 16 2005 at 12:15 |
Duke is one of the best Genesis albums as a trio. It's less proggy than ATTWT but is more coherent. On ATTWT they were searching for a sound, they were evolving as songwriters and wanted something fresh, IMO on Duke they succeeded on that. So I'd say that while ATTWT is a more progressive record, Duke is an overall better album. Personally, I couldn't tell you which of them is my favourite.
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Don't be a prog-hole, please...
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 27956
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Posted: October 02 2005 at 17:26 |
I like all Genesis albums up to and inc Duke.Abacab I felt was the band 'selling out'.You can make excuses for it (and many do) but Genesis like a number of bands took the easy route -make videos/ appear on TOTP/get played on Radio1/sell the album based on 1 or 2 songs- and Abacab was the start.
Anyway I'm interested to know what people think of the concept of this album.I've always thought it was about themselves as a band.They actually seem to be writing their own obituary as a prog band..at least that is what the lyrics come across to me as especially on 'Duchess'.I wonder if anyone else sees it that way?!
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Frasse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2004
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 758
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Posted: October 02 2005 at 17:06 |
Duke is the first album by Genesis I've heard. Turn it on again is as good as pop can be, Behind the lines and duchess are decent but Duke's Travel / Duke's End must be their best post-Hackett "song".
Duke may not be on the same level as Gabriel-era Genesis but the Genesis of 1980 couldn't sound like Genesis 1974, or else they wouldn't be a progressive band. And of course, if Gabriel isn't with the band, they can't sound like Gabriel-era Genesis.
Edited by Frasse
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FragileDT
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1485
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Posted: October 02 2005 at 16:49 |
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To me, no Genesis album comes near the Gabriel-era music. The only ones
that are very good and worth mention are A trick of the tail and w & w. Once
Hackett left I was done with them. As if it wasn't depressing enough after
Gabriel
left.
Edited by FragileDT
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One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless Compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: October 02 2005 at 16:20 |
I think Duke is a great album - co-incidentally, bar the tracks you mention, Andy. It was the gang of 3's answer to the 1980s. Personally I think that ATTWT was too much of an effort to sound like the old Genesis. Duke sounds like a forward thinking (ie Progressing) Genesis, which is but one reason to like and respect it.
As for the reviewer wondering why we consider albums in terms of prog on a prog rock site - has he got his head up his bum or something?
Crivens!
Invisible Touch may suck in my opinion, but I'll blinking well consider it in terms of whether it's prog or not simply because that (to me) is why I review it on PROG Archives. If I reviewed it on SUCKYMUSIC Archives, then it might be a 5 starrer...
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’Duke’ By Genesis
