Most underrated bassist in prog |
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Magog2112
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Posted: August 05 2023 at 07:41 |
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Neil Pepper of Galahad
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BrufordFreak
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Third and seconded, respectively!
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Drew Fisher
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RockHound
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Seconded!
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Ghost Whistler
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Also the guy out of Wobbler is pretty good. That old retro ricky feel
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Ghost Whistler
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While a little limited (with all due respect to the player), I'd stil much rather hear this than the modern day weedy typewriter acrobatics that comprises modern playing. Or just listen to Tony Levin, who is god
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presdoug
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I wanted to give a shout out for ORIGINAL Eloy bassist Wolfgang Stocker, who played on their first two albums. After that, he disappeared from sight, as far as I know. His bass work on Inside, the second Eloy album, is especially noteworthy.
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Atavachron
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Not to mention organ, piano, mellotron, synthesizer, upright bass, mandolin, lute, arranging & studio directing. Edited by Atavachron - September 08 2019 at 01:16 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27956 |
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I do think we all get very confused about this. Yes of course you can have any make up of instruments in a band. You can strip it down or add as a is necessary. ELP were quite keen not to have hidden musicians on stage and made a point of it so occasionally Greg would play lead guitar and Keith had to fill in. This could be quite interesting and worked tremendously well on for instance Tarkus (Battlefield section). But really there are no rules here. I don't think anyone is suggesting that bass has to be present or not be present but a lot of great rock music would be less great without the bass. Rush are one my favourite bands and no bass would just not be an option. Freewill would indeed be nothing without it but then Rush would never have written the song with no bass , that would be insane!
Edited by richardh - September 08 2019 at 01:04 |
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Fischman
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Zep does sound rather shrill. But JPJ is truly one of the greats. Not only is he underrated as a bassist, he's horribly underrated as a member of the group. This is particularly egregious because he's not simply gelling the group; his lines are innovative, unique, melodic in their own right, and so much a bigger part of the music and what makes it great than simply being part of a competent rhythm section... in much the same vein as John Entwistle or Geddy Lee. |
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Atavachron
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I suppose that's fair, but I stand by the importance of both the bass part which is the compositional ground of the piece, and the bass sound which adds dimension and depth tho the music. Of course there can be parts that don't have or need any bass at all, but that's an exception. The bass ~ especially in a band with very little guitar ~ is the cake, and everything else is the icing. Again, remove the bass from ELP or Floyd or Zeppelin or any other important acts in rock, and you get something that simply doesn't have the sonic potential or depth it would otherwise. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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cstack3
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Good suggestions, thanks for Dennis Dunaway (Alice Cooper!).
I'm a Rickenbacker player, so naturally, any of the prog bassists who concentrated on that axe are favorites!
I'm lucky to have met many of my idols, including Chris Squire...however, he gets all the props! For under appreciated bassists, I'd suggest Chris's former London flat-mate, Ray Bennett, ex-Flash bassist. Amazing technique! I wonder if they didn't learn the Herco plectrum/Rickenbacker/Rotosound string technique by hanging out together. Another bassist I knew was Gary Strater from Starcastle, he was like a clone of Squire! RIP Gary. Finally, I'd nominate Jon Camp of Renaissance! We just became Facebook friends, and he has made very solid contributions to the prog music canon. His work on Rickenbacker was excellent, and these days, his axe of choice is Vigier. He is an unsung soldier in prog history. |
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moshkito
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I think this is grossly unfair. The idea was NEVER to have the same instruments and the same sound and the same composition design ... as EVERYONE ELSE ... which is what you are basically stating if I do not mis-understand it. A bass, or a guitar, or drums, is NEVER a must ... except that your ears are so stuck with one style of music and sound, that you are having a hard time explaining ELP without a bass guitar, or Greg merely filling in here and there to augment things some ... but you certainly can see that ELP was not about a "bass" guitar, or whatever a fan wants to hear ... it was about its own music and its own presentation. Please, do not "demand" that a band have this or that, and take their individuality out ... "progressive" music was built on this individuality, not on your, or mine, design for music ... but we can't grow out of that top ten thinking and must have this and that instrument ... that is just so sad ... and you are a representative of this board saying something that is NOT "progressive" in my seeing of things.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Archie
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Jonathan Scales plays with some of the best. A clip with his old bassist, Cody Wright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSi-A5Ls0ew&t=33m51s
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Atavachron
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Try losing the bassist in rock or replacing them with a keyboard-- it doesn't work. Sure ELP and others would sometimes do it, but that was out of necessity and only because Keith's sound was so full and rich it was a good substitute for a bass, not a replacement. And even then they knew enough to make sure whatever was generating it, there was a bass part. Without it, ELP would've sounded thin, flat, and unprofessional. Edited by Atavachron - September 05 2019 at 14:18 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Ghost Whistler
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He's great, but I felt playing the Fish was a step too far, even though his performance was excellent. I'd say Tull always had underrated bassists. Or the guy from Eloy.
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richardh
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Drums are a different matter. It would be hard to name a great band with a poor drummer. A poor drummer is someone who could be replaced by a metronome imo. Bass on the other hand can be a lot of things and it can even not be there ( or replaced by a hand on the keyboard) as was often the case with ELP. Yeah of course the composition of the music is everything. Who wants to hear bad music played by great musicians (probably the reason I don't care about Jazz much < insert winky emoticon here> ) |
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moshkito
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And this is my point ... we're making it sound like the completeness of the music is not helped by the bass player and that he/she dominates the proceedings, which is not true. Again, if the composition for the works was not there, Jaco might not have been able to go as free as he did ... and a lot of the same thing happens to the other bands and their combinations. To me, it's about all of it ... not just one piece. Although we can find some very notable exceptions, and all you have to do is listen/see the Tom Dowd DVD to learn something about one of the greatest guitar duets ... that was caught "accidentally", and the rest of the music added to it. Yes, there are individual bits and pieces and moments, however, if it is not incorporated correctly, then either the band is not capable of handling the better player, or the player knows its not going to work. I rather think that with LZ, JPJ and the rest of the folks worked on their combinations and relationships in order to be able to add/subtract/include some bits and pieces of this and that to augment the quality of the music and playing ... and making the whole piece of music better for it. For me, it wasn't just about JPJ ... it was about the other three folks being able to add each and everyone's bits and pieces and making it work to enhance the quality of the experience and the music ... and this is almost impossible to be done these days on a DAW, without the REAL/active human element involved. Any band saying that a bass or drums are the most important is not looking at their composition ... they are merely counting and hoping to stay in form the whole way, which is usually the case if the whole thing is just riff driven, and not music design or composition driven, specially when done by all the members of the band!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Atavachron
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Depends what's meant by 'important'. The bass is in many ways the most important element in terms of cohesion: Adam Clayton is certainly not important to the music of U2 nor an extraordinary bass player, but his contribution is absolutely essential for the execution and gelling of the music. The bass is the invisible unsung hero of rock. Without it Zeppelin would sound shrill, Hendrix a mess, Floyd untethered, Van Halen one-dimensional. Edited by Atavachron - September 04 2019 at 01:16 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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richardh
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I've not seen anyone say that Yes is just about Squire or whatever. Usual making up stuff that simply doesn't exist from Mosh. My 'shout out' Klaus Peter Matziol could create a whole tapestry of music underneath the band and I find that fascinating. But I love the keyboards (loads of synths) as well obviously and the whole band sound is very impressive. All the elements come together. There was not a better band than Eloy around about 1982 imo. I've been listening to Refugee again with the re-issue of their one and only album and Lee Jackson surely deserves a mention. Lovely crisp bass sound that supports Moraz perfectly. Davison is also on fire. This album eclipsed everything The Nice did and some!
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chopper
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That's true but I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Squire is a very prominent bass player but obviously Yes are about the rest of the band as well, and Squire is hardly underrated anyway. I was in band once and our manager told me the bass player was the most important member of the band (although I think he was just saying that to get me to play better). Though it pains me to say this, it's not true, it's the drummer.
Edited by chopper - September 03 2019 at 07:00 |
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