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Is Prog Underrated?

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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2018 at 01:48
Yeah I'm closer to Moshkito's thoughts on this. As a professional artist myself a statement like this simply makes no sense at all: 
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.
Its a way of thinking about-and categorizing the arts that has been proven wrong countless times throughout the centuries. A lot of older autodidact/folk/outsider art is now counted as fine art. Self taught artists such as Paul Cezanne, William Blake, Max Ernst, Balthus, Frida Kahlo (or composers like Bohuslav Martinů, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Giacinto Scelsi...) often had a harder time careeerwise but eventually such things doesn't matter - as it shouldn't. Within the arts, because so much useless crap is produced and presented even at most important museums and fairs "everyone" puts far too much weight on the "where" rather than "what". But thankfully history doesn't care as much about such technicalities. Some prog will be canonized and a lot of academic arts - now respected and considered important will be dismissed and forgotten. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2018 at 20:43
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.

That's the problem. For me, it IS a FINE ART. 

What makes you think that playing an instrument today, was any different than 400 years ago, and that people did not respond to it?

I tend to consider a lot of the "progressive" material, nearly the same as any classical music. I do not like to separate them as "just rock music", because their effect on me, is no different than the 5th, the 3rd, Thus Spake Strauss, or the Bolero, and a thousand other pieces.

If you ask me, instead, is Punk "overrated", I might say yes, but being a theater/film person, so many of these "scenes" are a public/social reaction, and while they may not be "important" musically, they are from a different perspective, in showing a social issue.

It reminds me of the Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill thing ... you and most folks don't give a damn about the theater (or even Bowie's Baal!), but the real strength of the whole thing is its message, and it's as if the music was not as important.

Just remember that I am the one trying to "elevate" the quality of the music we love, and you are (for my tastes) bringing it down by suggesting this or that of my choice is not as good as your choice, and I'm not sure that what you are saying is helping define, and make the music we love more important. If anything, by consistently trying to bring me down, you are in effect denying the music its strength, in other areas that are often not mentioned or discussed.

Ex: Everyone thinks that PG was great with all the costumes and what not, and that Genesis died after that. No one talks about masks and costumes having its history going back at least to Greek Theater, and in Eastern theater in both China and Japan. This, would make Genesis, not very original! And is the main reason why I do not find that the music is better because the costumes were used. 

"Prog" and "Progressive" is as important a musical period, as Baroque, Romantic, and any other definition out there. Just weird that you seem to be strictly discussing top of the pops, against my posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 11:58
Ah, yep. I would have to agree. I consider prog to be a performing art. Its just not a fine art.

Edited by SteveG - March 28 2018 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 08:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I have always thought that many of the well known pieces by various folks that are considered historic and tops in the Progressive/Prog world, should be considered serious composed material, and that makes a band a "composer", which I think is the future definition for the history of music.

All in all, the "rating" (over or under) is really meaningless ... and I really think that we should respect the music for what it is ... one of the most valuable of all human expressions, and how it can help us at so many times in our life, compared to any other art. It might not be our favorite, but it still stands up ... and as such, a rating is meaningless to our own experience.


(I know I'm going to regret this) Why do you continue to assert (or even care) that what are considered the finest creations of Progressive Rock would withstand even the flimsiest scrutiny under which formal academic music is routinely subjugated? Sine qua non: There are pop music songs that move me profoundly e.g  God Only Knows, The Long and Winding Road, Waterloo Sunset, Jumping Jack Flash (the list goes on) I'm sure that when pressed, you would agree to having your own list based on those times that resonate within your own personal experience. Cut to the chase: why does what floats your boat leave the rest of us feel like like landlocked Bolivian frigates (pun intended)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 08:13
Hi,

Prog/Progressive for me, is not underrated, or overrated. It is MUSIC, and regardless it will resonate as long as it attracts people to it, be it live or Memorex ... sorry couldn't help it!

If you look at music history, the periods of material that CHANGED the norms, were the ones that ended up being remembered and are a part of the history of the art form.

Some think that rock music, is too much pop song defined and simplified, and as such its history within the realms of "music" will be limited, when so much more can be done with more instruments or compositionally. I will not agree with Ian Anderson, who said that everything has been done in rock music that can be done, and its over, but the changes within it, to electric and then to something else, and now to the DAW, kinda tells you that the music is not solid enough to be carried as a musical element that will change the history of the art form. Jazz, for example stands to benefit more by adding the odd things and time changes to classical music, which are ... still ... not quite being reflected as "classical composers", most of which  have disappeared due to the possible chance of 10 minutes of fame and a million dollars.

I have always thought that many of the well known pieces by various folks that are considered historic and tops in the Progressive/Prog world, should be considered serious composed material, and that makes a band a "composer", which I think is the future definition for the history of music. Up until now the single person got the credit, and now it's 2 or 3 or 4 or more folks together that become known as the composer, and I do not think there is anything wrong with that.

The only thing that makes this "underrated", or even "overrated", is the fact that this is being done amidst a very large group of "fans", and not quite folks that are well knowledgeable about music itself, or its history (myself included ... mine is peripheral, I would say!), in order to be saying/asking some of the things they are. But the things that hurt the understanding and appreciation of the music itself, for me, is the bunch of posts about which is "better", and which "guitar" is more important. Weird when no one that we know ever asked which violin made ... something ... better than the rest of the music! Or which conductor made it more important!

Those kinds of questions, can only ask senseless questions that do not always mean a whole lot, or have any direct relation to the music and the presentation of it at all. Go read about any major artist, and that is their biggest complaint.

All in all, the "rating" (over or under) is really meaningless ... and I really think that we should respect the music for what it is ... one of the most valuable of all human expressions, and how it can help us at so many times in our life, compared to any other art. It might not be our favorite, but it still stands up ... and as such, a rating is meaningless to our own experience.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 05:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Is prog just the b*****d stepchild of rock or does it have a real musical pedigree in the outside world?


Prog is often treated by mainstream rock fans with the sort of suspicion befitting the profoundly deaf being offered a guide dog.

All cynicism aside, yes it has had an enduring and discernible influence on practically every musical development since its inception (inside and outside of rock)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 05:17
OK Steve

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 05:06
"Those who can be made to believe in absurdities. Can be made to commit atrocities!" - Descartes....
Er, ooh crap wrong board....
By me - No,
by the proletariat philistine sheeples - YES!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 04:45
Hey, no more vague quotes from poets or I'll bring back creepy Freud! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hellogoodbye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 04:24
Like the french poet René Char would say : Prog is looking for the livable head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 04:20
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

The most important thing here is that Steve gets rid of that scary avatar and bring back the cute doggy peering through lattice.
Done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 02:11
Depends which side of the fence you're on!

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2018 at 00:33
Yes.

It is underrated.
Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 22:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 20:59
The most important thing here is that Steve gets rid of that scary avatar and bring back the cute doggy peering through lattice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larkstongue41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 18:18
If we consider how it is mocked by most critics and a lot of the general public despite having contributed to some of the biggest (mainly technological) advancements in the history of rock music, then yes it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ProgMetaller2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 18:08
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Agree 100%. But does prog being outside of rock make it more of an art form than being part of rock? Its just your opinion, but I'm curious to see how prog is perceived by both prog and non prog fans. And I assume you're part of the former. 


I read it wrong. Lol. Yeah, I am part of the former
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 15:48
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ Agree 100%. But does prog being outside of rock make it more of an art form than being part of rock? Its just your opinion, but I'm curious to see how prog is perceived by both prog and non prog fans. And I assume you're part of the former. 

I don't think prog is perceived as being outside of rock any more than any other rock subgenre(including jam bands and post rock). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 15:47
I saw on a website earlier today where progressive rock came in third(behind heavy metal and hard rock respectively). It even beat punk and alternative. That's pretty good. So yeah, I would say the days of prog being this obscure genre that hardly anyone has heard of are clearly over. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2018 at 14:59
Well...yeah. 
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