Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Abundance of one-man "bands" in modern prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedAbundance of one-man "bands" in modern prog

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 13>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2013 at 10:34

Isn't this a contradiction - harking back to the good-old days of tin cans and wet string while decrying copying of a bye-gone era? Music is not a product of technology and technique, it's the product of musicians and human creativity, of using the tools to the best of their capabilities, not hog-tying musicians to a set of ideals that only exist by revisionist rewritting of history.

Dean,

What is your favorite Prog band, and what year or years did they do their best work?

Prog is a genre, and it has rules just like other genres of music.  You can't play Reggae beats all night and call it a jazz band. 

The argument that Prog should have the goal of pushing beyond all it's traditional boundaries suggest that all music post 1980 is prog.  Punk is prog because it progressed beyond the pretentious groups of the 70's.  Speed metal is prog because it progressed from Crimson's Red album.  Grunge is Prog because it progressed from Punk which progressed from Prog.  New Wave bands like Flock of Seagulls are Prog because that was the natural progression of the Synth sound laid down by 70's Prog bands.

NO... it's a crap argument.  Prog has rules and boundaries no different than any other genre.



Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2013 at 09:25
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

 
One aspect of this topic (which is quite sad)..is the dismissal or disregard of original unorthodox recording methods that are now replaced by buttons and samples. Beaver & Krause experimented with ideas in sound by setting up production in a real cathedral or recording sounds of children's laughter in a park. Seems a bit pointless to many who depend on samples. Other unorthodox recording methods such as slapping wet bath towels against a wall or slamming a mallet upon a kettle drum covered with cat litter were utilized in the content of a rock song.

"Replaced" is a very close-ended word here, suggesting an either-or scenario.   What is nearer the truth is there are lots of options for musicians these days and some go the whole hog with the power of digital and some want it a little more organic.  It is unfortunate if we only want to focus on those albums that completely harness digital tools and then paint it in a negative light.   Would it not be more interesting to highlight contemporary albums that use worldly sounds in a creative way in music.  Because there are such, and it is sad if we want to believe that kind of music making is dead when some musicians are making a passionate effort to keep it alive, if only because it serves their artistic needs (and why should there be any other reason for that anyway).

I have to cite Idler Wheel here again, if only because it's a 2012 album and I am not invested enough in contemporary prog to think of a better example from within prog.  But one of the instruments credited in the notes is "Truck Stomper".   Both musicians on the album - Fiona Apple and Charlie Dayton - credit themselves as 'field recordists'.   Apple has also utilized her thighs as percussions in one of the songs and the effect is wonderful.  IIRC there are also some noises that sound like schoolchildren playing or something of the sort in the song Werewolf.  This is a major artist releasing on Sony Music, an album that hit no.3 on the billboards.   I am sure there must be plenty other artists adopting a similar approach.   The music scene of today is vast and scattered, so much depends on what we listen to, what we want to listen to and how we want to listen to it.   I just wish music was better publicized these days and word got out on good albums, it seems to have become a relatively marginal entity in culture compared to even not so long ago.    


Edited by rogerthat - January 02 2013 at 09:28
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2013 at 07:26
Originally posted by wilmon91 wilmon91 wrote:

It's an interesting discussion with many different aspects to consider. But first and foremost , the most important thing is that each musician is able to keep doing music, and should be encouraded to do so, even if it means working with limited possibilities. In all kinds of environments you need to compromise.
 
It's not all about sound, it's the method of working, and some musicians may not be aware of how their working method influences the music, in a positive or negative way. If having a habit of using quantization and strict metronome-tightness, the resulting music may have a mechanic quality.
 
I think Tony Banks latest orchestral album "Six Pieces" suffers a little from being too rigid in the way that the music is closely related to the beat and the bar lines, so the beats are highlighted by the music, which makes it a little stiff. It may be a result from working with sequencers, but not necessarily. It may be the fact that he is mostly accustomed to doing rock related music. Otherwise in classical , and jazz, the music plays around the beats, not accentuating them, but rather pretending that they are not there. If doing a piece in 4/4, you can write music with a 3/4 feeling that goes across the bar lines. The bar lines can be completely ignored, if you will. 
I agree with this and this is the difference between someone who is using the tools that computers provide perhaps for the first time before they have come to terms with the possibilities and limitations that they provide. We all think we're pretty good at keeping time, when playing alone either for amusement or practice we tap our foot or nod our head to keep time and count in our heads (one-e and-a two-e and-a three-e), we may even continue to do this when jamming with others while following the tempo laid down by the drummer or bass player or rhythm guitar, or following a guide-track we recorded previously, but that pace is never constant, it speeds up and slows down even when we're following a score or tab or a chart. This is one of the roles of a conductor in an orchestra, to keep the tempo, to mark time, a human click track (in the Tom Dowd documentary that Pedro refers to there is a wonderful section of Dowd conducting a band during a recording session).
 
Seeing the recorded waveform on a computer screen shows how "off" we can be and that presents us with four simple options - leave it as recorded, have another go, tweak it to fit (quantisation) or re-record it against a metronomic click or guide track. The choice we make is one of preference and experience. Personally I don't like quantisation of either note pitch or note timing, it's just a little too artificial even when allowing a little free-form slack in how the software adjusts each note - in all my recordings I never used it - if I can't hit the tempo and it sounds wrong I'll re-record the part, if it sounds right I'll leave it, regardless of how far off the beat the display says I am. A click-track is just to boring to play against, too reminiscent of hours spent listening to the tick of a metronome when learning to play (fine for a drummer perhaps, though most good drummers seem to carry that click in their heads, that's what makes them good drummers); If a click is a necessity (and sometimes I believe it is, some peices I wrote need precision from an artistic point of view - for example when creating phasing like in Steve Reich's Electric Guitar Phase) I think it is better if a human records a simple guide-track using one instrument that will be discarded later (or in the example of phasing - two guide tracks) - that second-generation timing is more natural, more creative and more artistic. Once you've laid-down that first track (whether you use a DAW or an analogue studio) you have set the timing and tempo of your final piece, every subsequent instrument and track-layer you record is dictated by that first track, you now play to that guide or to the rhythmn track recorded to that guide, not the bar-lines on the screen or the tick of a metronome.
 
Even in studio software and (spit) Cubase the bars-lines are there as a guide and a reference, you don't have to use them, you can still play 3/4 time against a 4/4 score, you can still record polyrhymns and polymeters and weird and wacky time signatures - the counting is in your head (or your tapping foot), not on the computer screen. Sure you can be a slave to the technology, or you can just use it as another tool in your musical utility belt.
 
Certainly I do think that some musicians who approach digital studio for the first time can be beguiled by the precision of the tools and can allow themselves to be dictated to, just as a beginner will hammer mechanically away at the keyboard as they follow a score while listening to the click of a metronome, but that will pass, they will get better with experience and begin to impose their feeling and expression onto the music they make.
 
If Tony Banks played on the beat then that was his artistic choice, he is a musican who has played with a band on stage and in the studio almost as many times as I've had hot dinners, I'd be very surprised if he didn't know what he was doing.
 
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

One aspect of this topic (which is quite sad)..is the dismissal or disregard of original unorthodox recording methods that are now replaced by buttons and samples. Beaver & Krause experimented with ideas in sound by setting up production in a real cathedral or recording sounds of children's laughter in a park. Seems a bit pointless to many who depend on samples. Other unorthodox recording methods such as slapping wet bath towels against a wall or slamming a mallet upon a kettle drum covered with cat litter were utilized in the content of a rock song. 20th Century Avant-Garde composers experimented with the same concept although technology was limited and they drew many of their influences from nature...as it wasn't a hippie invention but how musicians/composers had been engaging in this religion for centuries. To a large extent the spiritual and intense experiences change with modern technology. You rely only on buttons and samples you are missing a true educational experience that you can expand with to create many beautiful pieces.
Again, it's just a tool and for me opened up the possibilities for experimentation and unorthodox recording far beyond anything I could have done with a tape deck. My Portastudio DAW, while not exactly being portable, can be taken anywhere with mains electricity, I've recorded outside, in a disused cow-shed, in an underground water tank, in the rain, by a steam railway line; I've captured the dawn chorus at 5 am in the morning, the rhythmic thrum of passing traffic; the wind through an aeolian harp in my garden; the distant sound of church bells chiming a plain bob major and a drummer beating a rhythm on rusty oil drum in a farm yard. I've played my music through 50 feet of stainless steel wire and recorded the effect of the earth's magnetic field on that current together with the ambient sounds of semi-rural life and passing light aircraft and mixed that back with the original source recording. A sampler can take any found sound and transpose that up the chromatic scale to turn the sound of a drain pipe into a polyphonic instrument or it can be a barrage of percussion and noise from pot-lids to anvils recorded and played at the touch of a midi keyboard, I've sampled the ticks from numerous wind-up clocks and used them to make a drum kit, I've done the same with water dripping into buckets, pails, oil drums and that underground water tank. All of these recordings captured on my little digital DAW were then used raw or spliced, transposed, flipped, manipulated and jiggled and filtered and used just as they would have been using any multitrack studio, just a little easier that's all.
 
 
The point I am making with both these examples here is the tool is what you use, and to use it you need to learn it. Anyone who only sees or hears the limitations of that equipment are not seeing the full potential of what this technology can offer. If all you can hear is the received wisdom that this technology limits this or curtails that, then the unlimited capability of that technology has slid past you unnoticed - and so it should - you should be listening to the music, not the technology it was recorded on. Going back to Tom Dowd, he was recording stereo in the 40s when other studios were cutting mono direct to disc, yet even he was taken aback when he heard what Les Paul was doing - he could not work out how Paul was recording multipart harmonies from his guitar and his wife's singing in his home when everyone else would need three guitarists and three singers to achieve that at that time. The answer was the multi-track tape deck, and that revolutionised recordings from that moment on. The seemingly infinite number of tracks capability of digital studio has taken that a quantum leap further - the limitations are within the head of the musician and the studio engineer, not the technology.


Edited by Dean - January 02 2013 at 07:36
What?
Back to Top
TODDLER View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 23:12
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

When going through the reviews in the home page I can't help noticing the apparent increase of one-man albums in modern prog (sometimes supported by a couple of guests). I have to admit that I have not listened to many of them.
This has surely been fueled by the new technologies which enable one musician to record and mix all the instruments (real or sampled ones) from the comfort of their home studio.
 
While it surely has its positive side enabling easier release of music, I'm one of those who think that much of the great music from the past came to being thanks to the chemistry of different musicians playing together and feedbacking each other's creativity. Anyone who has played in a band has experienced those magical moments when all the members seem to "click" in a synchronized state of mind and some amazing music comes out. What started as a jam may produce a sudden fragment of wonderful music which can then be taken and developed into a proper song.
 
One-man musicians can "jam with themselves" by recording tracks and then improvising on them with another instrument to try to come up with ideas, but the recorded tracks can not react back and change themselves while playing. There is no feedback possible.
 
Do you think the abundance of modern one-man projects is a good thing or does it tend to lower the creativity level in modern prog?
One aspect of this topic (which is quite sad)..is the dismissal or disregard of original unorthodox recording methods that are now replaced by buttons and samples. Beaver & Krause experimented with ideas in sound by setting up production in a real cathedral or recording sounds of children's laughter in a park. Seems a bit pointless to many who depend on samples. Other unorthodox recording methods such as slapping wet bath towels against a wall or slamming a mallet upon a kettle drum covered with cat litter were utilized in the content of a rock song. 20th Century Avant-Garde composers experimented with the same concept although technology was limited and they drew many of their influences from nature...as it wasn't a hippie invention but how musicians/composers had been engaging in this religion for centuries. To a large extent the spiritual and intense experiences change with modern technology. You rely only on buttons and samples you are missing a true educational experience that you can expand with to create many beautiful pieces.
Back to Top
progger7 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 02 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 238
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 21:27
I actually enjoy a few 1 man bands though when they tour they obviously hire help. some of my favorites are Chimpspanner, Cloudkicker and The Algorithm,
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 20:24
I have performed and recorded with bands, done studio work, played in failed projects, and subbed in other bands for beer.

Recording the things I make up and letting people listen to them was a dream.  I never had the money to go to a big studio and hire a band and do what I wanted to do.  I still don't.  Recording at home, and doing everything myself, wasn't a compromise- it was a necessity if I wanted to get my notes and chords out there.

Minor mistakes aside, I don't regret any of it.  Would I have made different technical choices knowing then what I know now?  Yes...but that adds counterfactual data, doesn't it?

Together or on our own, we all strive to get better and express what goes on in our own private universes, don't we?


Edited by Epignosis - January 01 2013 at 20:25
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 19:53
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


BUT if you want integrity and idealism don't look to your guilty gilded heroes - they sold out 40 years ago when they signed to major labels and filled 50,000 seat arenas - look to the guys who are forming bands today, those who want to play unfashionable music that the major labels wouldn't touch with a 40-foot pole. Those guys who are talented and can play their instruments as well as any of the bands from the 70s if you care to put aside prejudice and actually listen to them. Sure they are recording that talent on home-brewed albums in garages and bedrooms that double-up as make-shift studios using digital software that come out of a small cardboard box and installs onto a $300 Best-Buy PC fitted with a $200 digital soundcard that you disparage so snobbishly. Those guys stand tall because they are not standing on top of huge mega-corporations like UMG, Sony and EMI.
 


Hear hear!   Clap
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 19:49
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Dean,

Did Jimmy really sell out after all these years?  Just last month?
I guess it really was over in the 70's. Presence was the last official Zep album as far as I'm concerned.
Another one bites the dust.

Is anyone still standing tall?


Keep up man, the Led Zepp catalogue has been available on iTunes since October 2007; Radiohead since 2008; The remaining Beatles settled their differences with Apple in 2010; Pink Floyd left iTunes in 2010 and rejoined in 2011; Zappa's back catalogue became available during 2012.
 
This had sod all to do with idealism or integrity, if you are a commercial artist it would be madness not to have your albums available on the worlds biggest music store. Their "beef" was not with digital music, it was all about MONEY.
 
Three bands not on iTunes? AC/DC, Tool and King Crimson. And the first two are holding out because they don't want their albums cut-up and sold track-by-track.
 
BUT if you want integrity and idealism don't look to your guilty gilded heroes - they sold out 40 years ago when they signed to major labels and filled 50,000 seat arenas - look to the guys who are forming bands today, those who want to play unfashionable music that the major labels wouldn't touch with a 40-foot pole. Those guys who are talented and can play their instruments as well as any of the bands from the 70s if you care to put aside prejudice and actually listen to them. Sure they are recording that talent on home-brewed albums in garages and bedrooms that double-up as make-shift studios using digital software that come out of a small cardboard box and installs onto a $300 Best-Buy PC fitted with a $200 digital soundcard that you disparage so snobbishly. Those guys stand tall because they are not standing on top of huge mega-corporations like UMG, Sony and EMI.
 
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The greatness era is over.. as long as the predominant way of thinking remains convenience oriented.

I'm just thankful that we had 12 years of great prog music. 

Sure, there has been some good stuff scattered around here and there since the golden age.. but an era like that won't happen again any time soon,  the one man band concept is not the answer either.

Prog musicians need to stop copy catting one another, move their focus toward quality over convenience at any cost, and stand with some integrity.


Isn't this a contradiction - harking back to the good-old days of tin cans and wet string while decrying copying of a bye-gone era? Music is not a product of technology and technique, it's the product of musicians and human creativity, of using the tools to the best of their capabilities, not hog-tying musicians to a set of ideals that only exist by revisionist rewritting of history.
What?
Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 18:25
Dean,

Did Jimmy really sell out after all these years?  Just last month?
I guess it really was over in the 70's. Presence was the last official Zep album as far as I'm concerned.
Another one bites the dust.

Is anyone still standing tall?


Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 18:23
The greatness era is over.. as long as the predominant way of thinking remains convenience oriented.

I'm just thankful that we had 12 years of great prog music. 

Sure, there has been some good stuff scattered around here and there since the golden age.. but an era like that won't happen again any time soon,  the one man band concept is not the answer either.

Prog musicians need to stop copy catting one another, move their focus toward quality over convenience at any cost, and stand with some integrity.


Back to Top
HackettFan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 15:34
Originally posted by Gerinsky Gerinsky wrote:


I agree with all what you said, I already said that the choice of instruments is not that relevant in this discussion IMO. I was replying to Todd (HackettFan) who seemed to suggest that since one can now produce multiple sounds from a single controller device (a guitar in his case) there is no need for a musician to explore other real instruments or types of controller (for example a keyboard in his case). I reckon that this was probably an exaggeration from my side and he actually meant it in the same sense as you say, but I felt I needed to raise some remarks which in fact amount to the same you are saying, processing-generated sounds are not to be understood as simply a convenient substitute for a real instrument.
Yeah, there is no "NEED" to explore other real instruments. One might still want to. I'm very interested in hammered dulcimer, for instance. I just tried to point out that, though it takes some ingenuity, it is possible for musicians can jam with themselves while controlling a whole band arrangement (even without computers). In other words solo artists could provide some of what you were looking for. You rejected that because a musician is not getting input from other musicians. While true enough, to be one person improvising a whole is arrangement is enormously empowering and exhilarating. Even if a soloist works in a traditional and methodical one track at a time approach, I don't feel there's anything deficient about that, quite the opposite. For myself, I don't have the time for that, and I like to improvise anyway. In your case, what you would simply like to hear is more band work period, because it brings certain things to the table. I don't have a problem with supporting that when stated that way. But I remain very uncomfortable with the 'solo works are an end to greatness' idea.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 11:24
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:



BTW as an example of "band chemistry", I was just listening to Bozzio-Levin-Stevens first album "Black Light Syndrome". It is said to have been recorded as the result of jamming and perfecting the ideas through 4 days of studio time. Well if that's the case I take my hat off to them, they play such an amazing music and you can feel a chemistry, even if it's a rather rough album, not very developed and polished, it's masterful and I have real trouble imagining it being a product of a one-man.

As I said once before in this thread, it's tough to create that kind of music with a one man army.   But given the direction of rock, it probably would be even otherwise, as rock has moved towards heaviness, towards textures and rigid rhythm sections and away from looseness.   There's a kind of thinking that advocates that the same drum pattern played in different parts of a composition should sound identical, that there should be no slight mistakes in vocal delivery and so on.  I don't subscribe much to that view, but in any case I doubt that musicians with that outlook, even if they worked  together in a band, would capture that spontaneity you seem to crave in band music.   
Back to Top
wilmon91 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 10:12
It's an interesting discussion with many different aspects to consider. But first and foremost , the most important thing is that each musician is able to keep doing music, and should be encouraded to do so, even if it means working with limited possibilities. In all kinds of environments you need to compromise.
 
It's not all about sound, it's the method of working, and some musicians may not be aware of how their working method influences the music, in a positive or negative way. If having a habit of using quantization and strict metronome-tightness, the resulting music may have a mechanic quality.
 
I think Tony Banks latest orchestral album "Six Pieces" suffers a little from being too rigid in the way that the music is closely related to the beat and the bar lines, so the beats are highlighted by the music, which makes it a little stiff. It may be a result from working with sequencers, but not necessarily. It may be the fact that he is mostly accustomed to doing rock related music. Otherwise in classical , and jazz, the music plays around the beats, not accentuating them, but rather pretending that they are not there. If doing a piece in 4/4, you can write music with a 3/4 feeling that goes across the bar lines. The bar lines can be completely ignored, if you will. 
 
In a lot of classical music I may be lost in what the time signature is, or can't even spot the tempo. In classical it's easy to assume that the first note in a melody is right on the first beat of a bar. But the melody in "Fur Elise" begins with 2 notes as a run-up (or what you call it). There are a lot of other examples like that. In Saint-Saens 3rd symphony there is a central theme with fast 16th note violins playing in a 3/4 time. I think everyone listening to it would assume that the notes are aligned to the bar beats. But when looking at the musical score, those violin notes are shifted a 16th note behind the beat. That was surprising to me.
 
So musicians working with computers and sequencers may develop habits in their working method which infuence the music in a way that they may be unaware of. And computer technology with all of its tools can easily stimulate such methods so that the end result may be compromised in some way or aspect.
 
I'm still struggling and haven't come far in my own music making, but I'm interested in the old way of writing notes directly on paper. It can be extremely time consuming though. But that way of working may produce different music. But whatever method you choose will have its obstacles and limitations.
 
I remember a video with Paul Mccartney composing for his "Standing Stone" piece. He worked with computer first, then transferred it to orchestra and real note sheets, the same method as Tony Banks used.I don't remember how the music sounded. But  I found the video:
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 10:09
Agreed, and while holding full respect for what you one-man bands do and really liking some one-band efforts, as a  generalization I tend to enjoy more band music, I hope you allow me to.

As with every thread the purpose is not to convince others of your point of view but to generate healthy debate and exchange of opinions.

BTW as an example of "band chemistry", I was just listening to Bozzio-Levin-Stevens first album "Black Light Syndrome". It is said to have been recorded as the result of jamming and perfecting the ideas through 4 days of studio time. Well if that's the case I take my hat off to them, they play such an amazing music and you can feel a chemistry, even if it's a rather rough album, not very developed and polished, it's masterful and I have real trouble imagining it being a product of a one-man.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 09:29
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think what irked me, and made me want to join in this particular branch of this debate, was the assumption that we (as one-man bands) do not consider the things you have stated (....)
I have to admit that until now I had never listened to your music. I have just listened to Pilgrim (a big thanks for posting the link) and even if I had only a first listen I have to say that, although not my fav style of music I have enjoyed it, there are many very interesting ideas and constructions, especially on the harmonic and orchestration aspects, and I can see that you put a lot of work on it, congratulations!

Yet, this brings forward an aspect which is crucial to the discussion and which although has been tangentially mentioned has been largely ignored, which is the kind of music one wants to make.

Hopefully you will agree that Pilgrim (it's the only work from you I have listened to) belongs largely to the orchestral / atmospheric / electronic realm, with significant influences from classical and contemporary classical music and little if any rock elements.
This kind of music is particularly suited to the one-man format, as Jean Michel Jarre's or Klaus Schulze's music was in their time (I'm not saying your music is like theirs).
I have 50 other albums, they are by and large a lot less orchestral or contemporary Art Music influenced, that wasn't the reason for using that album as an illustration. There are many examples of music that fails to fit a traditional rock and roll "combo" format produced by bands, ensembles or collectives of musicians that still rocks - the whole genre of RIO/Avant-Prog chamber music, a sizeable portion of Post Rock and some contemporary Psyche Prog discards the traditional rock-band format (drums, bass, rhythmn & lead) and still produces rock music, even Prog Electronic bands like Tangerine Dream manage to eschew the rock-format and still managed to produce Progressive Rock (such as Force Majeure).
 
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


One-man guys trying to make a more traditional rock-oriented prog are more likely to suffer the potential pitfalls of the one-man format.
I make no distinction, it is perfectly possible to make rock music as a one man band, I choose not to simply because I find the format to be restrictive. While it seems that this doesn't appeal to you (and a few others here) and you seem to find it lacking in some way, I see nothing amiss or lacking in what those guys (okay, not me) are producing. The premis that you have to be a bass player to compose a bassline is one I struggle to comprehend, yet the notion that as a one-man band you can tell the imaginary bass player to shut up for five minutes and not play a note is one that appeals to me, just as the idea of telling Portnoy, Collins or Peart not to hit the cymbals during this album, or again, to shut up for five minutes and not make a sound would possibly be an improvement in some cases.
 
If we can take anything from Prog, it should be the idea that the rules or regulations that you must do, or must follow to be Prog are made to be bent, twisted and re-interpretted and if you're very good and behave yourself, even break them or discard them altogether.
What?
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 07:31
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I think what irked me, and made me want to join in this particular branch of this debate, was the assumption that we (as one-man bands) do not consider the things you have stated (....)
I have to admit that until now I had never listened to your music. I have just listened to Pilgrim (a big thanks for posting the link) and even if I had only a first listen I have to say that, although not my fav style of music I have enjoyed it, there are many very interesting ideas and constructions, especially on the harmonic and orchestration aspects, and I can see that you put a lot of work on it, congratulations!

Yet, this brings forward an aspect which is crucial to the discussion and which although has been tangentially mentioned has been largely ignored, which is the kind of music one wants to make.

Hopefully you will agree that Pilgrim (it's the only work from you I have listened to) belongs largely to the orchestral / atmospheric / electronic realm, with significant influences from classical and contemporary classical music and little if any rock elements.
This kind of music is particularly suited to the one-man format, as Jean Michel Jarre's or Klaus Schulze's music was in their time (I'm not saying your music is like theirs).

One-man guys trying to make a more traditional rock-oriented prog are more likely to suffer the potential pitfalls of the one-man format.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 05:43
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

I agree with all what you said, I already said that the choice of instruments is not that relevant in this discussion IMO.
I was replying to Todd (HackettFan) who seemed to suggest that since one can now produce multiple sounds from a single controller device (a guitar in his case) there is no need for a musician to explore other real instruments or types of controller (for example a keyboard in his case). I reckon that this was probably an exaggeration from my side and he actually meant it in the same sense as you say, but I felt I needed to raise some remarks which in fact amount to the same you are saying, processing-generated sounds are not to be understood as simply a convenient substitute for a real instrument.  
I think what irked me, and made me want to join in this particular branch of this debate, was the assumption that we (as one-man bands) do not consider the things you have stated. That we blindly plonk away on a keyboard or whatever, using preset sounds samples without considering the instrument that originally produced them, or what the synthesis methodology is replicating. As someone who has recorded real instruments and who does consider more than just the sound that emanates from the business end of an acoustic instrument I take exception at some of the assumptions you presented.
 
When recording an acoustic guitar I use a minimum of three microphones as well as any built-in (piezo) pickups the guitar may have - one near the sound-hole, one placed half a metre or so away to capture the overall ambiance and one close to the fret board (often near the 12th fret) to capture the fingering of fret and string noise - these then get mixed to create as natural a sound as it is possible to make in an analogous media - because remember this - an analogue recording, whether recorded on analogue tape or digital memory is an analogy to the real sound, the microphones do not capture the real sound, that is physically impossible, they record an analogy, a likeness, that is why the signals are called Analogue. That is what the word means. The same approach applies when recording a flute or a violin or the human voice or a drum kit (and I have done all those as well).
 
So when it comes to using samples to replicate the "natural" sound of a guitar or a drum or a flute I apply the same reasoning and the same philosophy, and use more than one virgin sample to recreate that sound, just as modern manufacturers of electric pianos use more than one sample per note to mimic the sound of an acoustic piano (some replicate the sound of each tine of the piano note, some use different samples for different velocities of key-press - these people do understand the sounds they are reproducing, they have ears just like you or I). When re-creating an acoustic guitar I used a bank six monophonic samplers, one for each string, and I could have added fret and string noise if I wanted, but I purposely chose not to, not because I forgot to, or because I could not, but because that particular section of music didn't not need it and I did not want those extraneous sounds recording at that time, for that piece. Not all the acoustic guitar I used was sampled, not all was live - I chose the sounds I wanted for when I wanted them, my choice, my music, my privilege, my indulgence - of course some.of that was determined by my limited ability with a real guitar, or the availability of a real guitarist to play the parts that were beyond my very basic skill on that instrument and some of it was decided by the piece itself, some of them are impossible for a guitarist to play, even a talented one and that was a deliberate choice. The impossible is not agaisnt the rules - I've recorded a vocal track where the vocalist sang every other word, then recorded the same track again where they sang all the missing words, the final vocal track being an interleaving of the two - impossible to sing in reality and not sounding like a duo singing in unison - impossible in real life but achieveable within a recording studio.
 
Now, I don't think I'm unique or special, I think all musicians have ears and can hear what they create, I think that all musicians who create music in a studio or in their bedrooms know what they are doing.


Edited by Dean - January 01 2013 at 06:06
What?
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 04:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:


What is real about an organ and what is fake about a guitar? I presume that there would be a natural motivation to learn to play the organ rather than the guitar if one were already a keyboardist. A guitarist on the other hand can stick with a fretboard and play quite capably with a POG2. This came up because of the strange accusation that people could not play multiple instruments well. 

None is more real or fake, that's not the point. Each instrument has its characteristics and these go far beyond timbre. The way a piano or keyboard are played (or any other instrument for what matters) brings with itself its own characteristics of velocity control, possibilities for arpeggiation, polyphony control, natural vibrato etc etc. Even if you can produce the timbre of a piano from your fretboard I don't think you can ever faithfully replicate this piece playing a guitar


Another example, a common weak point of programmed acoustic guitars is that you do not hear the sound of the fingers gliding across the fretboard as you change chords. This may sound trivial to some but it gives a very annoying feeling to anybody who knows how a real nylon or acoustic guitar sounds. Some might consider the sound of a gliding hand a "sound imperfection", but sometimes it's the imperfections like this which give soul to an instrument's sound (similarly, the breathing for a singer or for a wind instrument).
I wonder if, when Bach sat down at the keyboard of a church pipe organ for the first time and pulled out the "Flute" stop, he thought to himself "Bleagh!! that doesn't even sound like a flute, there's no breath sounds and I'd better not play chords with this stop because that would be unnatural as a flute is monophonic"
 
No, of course he didn't - he pulled the stop and played it like an organ, with chords and arpeggios and huge stabs of sound that would rattle the windows and growling swells of sound that could hold a note for as long as the peasant boy on the bellows could peddle that would reverberate around the hall in a way that any number of flautists could never imagine producing. Yet I'm sure Johan Sebastian, who was a proficient organist, could (with the lightest of touches across the keyboard) produce a trill and flutter that was a good approximation to a real flute, close enough at least for the sound he wanted to make, just as a proficient keyboardist can take a "guitar" sample on the cheapest Yamaha keyboard and play it in an approximation of a real guitar as long as he uses his fingers to replicate the attack and decay of a plucked note rather than a keyed note (which is why keyboardists like touch-sensitive keyboards) - expression is what it says it is - expression.
 
However, keyboard players playing a guitar or flute sound are not trying to mimic a guitar or flute, a guitarist using a guitar synth or a bank of analogue & digital effects are not trying to mimic other instruments - the synthesiser may have been designed to synthesise other instruments but it came into its own as an instrument when musicians began to experiment and explore the aural sound-scape of the instrument itself and not as a simulacrum of other instruments. Even with the bestist imaginary guitar synth in the whole world ever a guitarist cannot replicate a piano piece (even the crummiest baddest piano piece in the whole world ever) because a guitar is only 6 (or 7) note polyphonic - once a guitar gets 10-note polyphony it stops being a guitar - but the guitarist can do something with that piano sound that a pianist can never do - he can bend it and slide it and do all those flash things that guitarists can do, hammer on and pull off, two hand tapping and he can add vibrato and tremolo and feedback and distortion, but he can't replicate the two-handed playing of a piano.
 
It's like a Rhodes electric piano is not a grand piano, it's a poor imitation of a grand piano, but it is an instrument in its own right, with its own sounds and its own nuances such that it now is being imitated but those imitations are not a Rhodes electric piano, nor are they a simulation of an electric piano imitating a grand piano, they are instruments in their own right, with their own sounds and their own nuances that use the basic characteristic sound of a Rhodes electric piano as their fundamental sound just as the Rhodes used the basic characteristic sound of a grand piano as their fundamental sound. No one would use a Rhodes when a Grand Piano was called for, so why expect a synth to do the same?
 
It's like a mellotron is not an orchestra, it is a sample of an orchestra playing one note for each key, but when it's played it bears little resemblance to a real orchestra playing that melody or tune - it can't, nor did anyone ever expect it to.
 
A modern organ is an electronic representation of a electromechanical organ which in turn is an electromechanical representation of a mechanical organ of pipes and valves, which in turn is a mechanical representation of all manner of different instruments from strings to woodwind to percussion to animal - nothing here is pure or genuine.
 
When Peter Gabriel got his hands on a Fairlight digital sampler he didn't use it "out of the box" to replace other instruments and musicians, he appreciated what this new instrument represented to a creative mind and explored the new avenues of sound it opened up. When musicians start attempting to replicate the sound of other instruments I begin to wonder whether they've missed the whole point of these instruments, and when critics complain that these sounds are not faithful representations then I begin to wonder what occurred in the history of using these tools to create music that brought us to this sorry state of affairs.
I agree with all what you said, I already said that the choice of instruments is not that relevant in this discussion IMO.
I was replying to Todd (HackettFan) who seemed to suggest that since one can now produce multiple sounds from a single controller device (a guitar in his case) there is no need for a musician to explore other real instruments or types of controller (for example a keyboard in his case). I reckon that this was probably an exaggeration from my side and he actually meant it in the same sense as you say, but I felt I needed to raise some remarks which in fact amount to the same you are saying, processing-generated sounds are not to be understood as simply a convenient substitute for a real instrument.  


Edited by Gerinski - January 01 2013 at 04:52
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 02:57
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Great music is more about restraint than chops... but make sure your fans know you have it also.. just enough to keep them guessing.  Led Zeppelin was great at this.  Are they on itunes? NO F*%&$& WAY.. as long as Page is alive.. they will not be on itunes. 
OMG! Page is dead???? Cry 
 
*facepalm*
 
For pity's sake Normon, if you're going to make s*it up you really should take two minutes to see if the s*it you make up either is true or at least cannot be verified at the click of a frickin' mouse button. Is every word that pours from your keyboard is like this - s*it you made up and couldn't be bothered to check? You didn't even have to sully your hands with searching iTunes iStore to find this out - just visit the Led Zeppelin offical website and click "Order Here" on the 16-track digital edition and it takes you directly to the iTunes page where you can buy the damn thing.
 
 
 
Happy New Year 1813


Edited by Dean - January 01 2013 at 02:58
What?
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2013 at 02:56
It's not about how long you make it, it's about how you make it long...

If you want a real guitar sound nothing beats a real guitar. 

 For crying out loud, they are one of the cheapest musical instruments on the freaking planet!!!!


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 01 2013 at 03:10
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 13>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.273 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.