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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

If anything fusion makes the most logical sense to include, as it's actually a progression of one or more styles combined. Metal is just metal with progressive elements, but it's still metal. 

Romantic Warrior is closer to progressive rock than Opeth, Symphony X, or Dream Theater.


Metal is not just metal - it's also rock because metal is a subgenre of rock.

So progressive metal is progressive rock; it's just the bands focus on different musical elements. A prog metal band that isn't directly influenced by a classic prog band is almost as rare as a classic prog band that never incorporated elements of metal into their music.


Edited by ForestFriend - February 21 2020 at 10:29
My prog band - Boreal Kinship
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

...
It can be a very useful list if you're new to prog and you want to discover some of the greatest albums in the genre, but it's by no means comprehensive. Or if you're familiar with prog, it can help fill in some gaps you might have missed. Use it as a starting point, and then let your own opinions and tastes guide you along.


I don't know ... I started on this way before the word "progressive" showed up ... and to me, the main issue I have with it is the "must have" side of things, that basically wants a keyboard player to solo 320 times in a song, and a guitar player doing his thing for the length of the song, and nothing else ... and sadly, someone like The Moody Blues who had at least 2 albums that should be listed in there, WAY BEFORE most of the folks listed here, are not there ... 

It is a very good guide to finding some music, with one exception ... it is preset to sound the same, and the only way you can find new music is to get off the "same thing" train! In their early days, Guru Guru was as experimental and progressive as any of those folks listed (I might except KC) ... but it's not gonna be there because there are no keyboards and a school dropout doing electric versions of classical solos on those keyboards. And then you get a band like ANGE, who had two keyboard players and they were not interested in classical music, and stuck to their theatrical material the whole time ... result? No one at PA even bothers discussing it, even when Christian Decamps is one of the best rock/actor singer there is!

It's not a gripe per se ... it's a simple request to find a more equitable and proper way to show a listing that gives some more credit to others that do not get a chance, because of the 1500 folks that rated Genesis, only 11 of those rated ANGE ... and the dis-proportion makes it look like one is better, and the valuation is slanted ... since many wars some 700 or 800 years ago ... the English will win this one, regardless, even when "cheating".

This is the main reason why I requested an "average" (yearly) to try and see if the results are the same ... which I do not think they would be. But having someone define something like this in a database, you have to not only love the music, you have to agree that the design is not perfect and there are bits and pieces that should be studied, that might help these numbers!


Wow! Since before the word progressive turned up. You must be pushing on in years then because I've got the term "progressive underground" dated to 1968. And that's the earliest proven example I've found, however there might be examples from 67, but it seems unlikely. Kudos to you then for having followed prog for so long, I turned seven at the end of 68.

Edited by LAM-SGC - February 21 2020 at 10:13
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We should have a top 100 bands/artists based on a highest average rating (that’s obviously weighted for number of ratings.)

Edited by dougmcauliffe - February 21 2020 at 09:57
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

In my world

The Snow Goose
Moonmadness
Mirage
...


Here’s one you don’t often hear:

Moonmadness
Rajaz
Mirage
Snow Goose
Nod and a Wink
Debut
Nude

All excellent

And this is one of my issues with the top 100. The other albums are not going to get as many listens as the one or two at the top ... and that "becomes" what Camel is all about in their music, never mind that "Snow Goose" has gotten more attention and appreciation than the rock albums, including some far out staging versions and orchestras. But a rock fan, will only vote for those two and think the rest of the band is trash.

Same thing for KC, ELP, YES, GENESIS ... where one, two or three albums are preferred and the same fans that gave it a high rating ... couldn't careless about the rest of their material.

To me, this is where I wish it would be a "composer" poll, rather than albums ... Camel would have a magnificent listing for the fans to hear ... and the same for the other bands ... but having 4 KC albums, 5 YES albums, 4 ELP albums, 3 GENESIS albums ... in that same top 100, takes the compositional element out of these bands and places it all on the "preferences" of a commercially designed and fronted process, which is made to ensure that those things get bought!
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Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

...
It can be a very useful list if you're new to prog and you want to discover some of the greatest albums in the genre, but it's by no means comprehensive. Or if you're familiar with prog, it can help fill in some gaps you might have missed. Use it as a starting point, and then let your own opinions and tastes guide you along.

I don't know ... I started on this way before the word "progressive" showed up ... and to me, the main issue I have with it is the "must have" side of things, that basically wants a keyboard player to solo 320 times in a song, and a guitar player doing his thing for the length of the song, and nothing else ... and sadly, someone like The Moody Blues who had at least 2 albums that should be listed in there, WAY BEFORE most of the folks listed here, are not there ... 

It is a very good guide to finding some music, with one exception ... it is preset to sound the same, and the only way you can find new music is to get off the "same thing" train! In their early days, Guru Guru was as experimental and progressive as any of those folks listed (I might except KC) ... but it's not gonna be there because there are no keyboards and a school dropout doing electric versions of classical solos on those keyboards. And then you get a band like ANGE, who had two keyboard players and they were not interested in classical music, and stuck to their theatrical material the whole time ... result? No one at PA even bothers discussing it, even when Christian Decamps is one of the best rock/actor singer there is!

It's not a gripe per se ... it's a simple request to find a more equitable and proper way to show a listing that gives some more credit to others that do not get a chance, because of the 1500 folks that rated Genesis, only 11 of those rated ANGE ... and the dis-proportion makes it look like one is better, and the valuation is slanted ... since many wars some 700 or 800 years ago ... the English will win this one, regardless, even when "cheating".

This is the main reason why I requested an "average" (yearly) to try and see if the results are the same ... which I do not think they would be. But having someone define something like this in a database, you have to not only love the music, you have to agree that the design is not perfect and there are bits and pieces that should be studied, that might help these numbers!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Tiny minded people who have a gripe about it.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

If anything fusion makes the most logical sense to include, as it's actually a progression of one or more styles combined. Metal is just metal with progressive elements, but it's still metal. 

Romantic Warrior is closer to progressive rock than Opeth, Symphony X, or Dream Theater.


Agreed. And I have never had a problem with fusion being called prog because it is a style of prog, as long as it is true fusion, and not just jazz.
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If anything fusion makes the most logical sense to include, as it's actually a progression of one or more styles combined. Metal is just metal with progressive elements, but it's still metal. 

Romantic Warrior is closer to progressive rock than Opeth, Symphony X, or Dream Theater.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Originally posted by progmatic progmatic wrote:

My biggest gripe about any poll or list is that people gripe about it.

I'm used to hearing gripes about my polls, but I just shrug them off like a bunch of grapes. Smile
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Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Far too much stuff that is not prog. Progressive metal is metal that has progressed within metal, it is not metal that has become prog.

Where are the progressive house, progressive garage and progressive hip hop artists then?   Exactly!!!!
Progressive metal is metal not prog.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU.
 

<span style="line-height: 16.54px;">
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Jazz is Jazz.</span><div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Metal is Metal.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Prog is Prog.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Those three genres are very close to my heart but they are separate genres.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">I doubt Close To The Edge appears on any jazz or metal "best of" list. <div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">This is problematic as it keeps some great LP's off the Top 100. Keep those artists on the site but off the chart!!! Like The Beatles. They are on the site but I don't see Sgt. Pepper or Abbey Road on the list...<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Keep the Top 100 Prog!!!<span style="line-height: 16.54px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Exactly. The people that disagree with this will also be the first to break down prog into 1,905 sub genres, and argue about why each is what and who and when.


Ditto to both posts.
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Most prog metal bands have morphed into straight prog now. Opeth, Riverside, etc.



Most? No, not by a long way, some would be the correct word to use. And some so called prog-metal bands are going back to simpler metal, and some were never really prog-metal anyway.
Ok, then. Let's say the ones in our orbit. Tongue And using your logic, progressive rock is only rock that has progressed within rock. ClapLOL
Edited to inset laughing emoji.  

Edited by SteveG - February 20 2020 at 11:41
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My biggest gripe about any poll or list is that people gripe about it.
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So the biggest gripe about the top 100 is the presence of Fusion, Metal & Kind Of Blue? Just glad no-one has gone after all the Avant & Zeuhl. Suppose we should just have Symph & Neo and nothing after 79.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Far too much stuff that is not prog. Progressive metal is metal that has progressed within metal, it is not metal that has become prog.

Where are the progressive house, progressive garage and progressive hip hop artists then?   Exactly!!!!
Progressive metal is metal not prog.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU.
 

<span style="line-height: 16.54px;">
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Jazz is Jazz.</span><div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Metal is Metal.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Prog is Prog.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Those three genres are very close to my heart but they are separate genres.<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">I doubt Close To The Edge appears on any jazz or metal "best of" list. <div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">This is problematic as it keeps some great LP's off the Top 100. Keep those artists on the site but off the chart!!! Like The Beatles. They are on the site but I don't see Sgt. Pepper or Abbey Road on the list...<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Keep the Top 100 Prog!!!<span style="line-height: 16.54px;">
</span><div style="line-height: 16.54px;">
<div style="line-height: 16.54px;">Exactly. The people that disagree with this will also be the first to break down prog into 1,905 sub genres, and argue about why each is what and who and when.


Ditto to both posts.
Thumbs Up

Most prog metal bands have morphed into straight prog now. Opeth, Riverside, etc.



Most? No, not by a long way, some would be the correct word to use. And some so called prog-metal bands are going back to simpler metal, and some were never really prog-metal anyway.
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Far too much stuff that is not prog. Progressive metal is metal that has progressed within metal, it is not metal that has become prog.

Where are the progressive house, progressive garage and progressive hip hop artists then?   Exactly!!!!
Progressive metal is metal not prog.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU.
 

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Jazz is Jazz.
Metal is Metal.
Prog is Prog.

Those three genres are very close to my heart but they are separate genres.

I doubt Close To The Edge appears on any jazz or metal "best of" list. 

This is problematic as it keeps some great LP's off the Top 100. Keep those artists on the site but off the chart!!! Like The Beatles. They are on the site but I don't see Sgt. Pepper or Abbey Road on the list...

Keep the Top 100 Prog!!!

Exactly. The people that disagree with this will also be the first to break down prog into 1,905 sub genres, and argue about why each is what and who and when.

Ditto to both posts.
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Most prog metal bands have morphed into straight prog now. Opeth, Riverside, etc.
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Wow, I can’t believe people are saying dream theater, Opeth and romantic warrior don’t deserve to be on a prog top 100.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Kate Bush and David Bowie are two of the more eclectic inclusions on ProgArchives because neither of those artists are generally regarded as Progressive Rock, but I'm glad they're both here anyway. Smile

Might be the issue, then ... when is progressive rock, MUSIC, and when is progressive music ... ROCK? When it is electrified?

That's likely an even bigger problem than the eclectic inclusions!
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Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by LAM-SGC LAM-SGC wrote:

Far too much stuff that is not prog. Progressive metal is metal that has progressed within metal, it is not metal that has become prog.

Where are the progressive house, progressive garage and progressive hip hop artists then?   Exactly!!!!
Progressive metal is metal not prog.

EXACTLY. THANK YOU.
 

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Jazz is Jazz.
Metal is Metal.
Prog is Prog.

Those three genres are very close to my heart but they are separate genres.

I doubt Close To The Edge appears on any jazz or metal "best of" list. 

This is problematic as it keeps some great LP's off the Top 100. Keep those artists on the site but off the chart!!! Like The Beatles. They are on the site but I don't see Sgt. Pepper or Abbey Road on the list...

Keep the Top 100 Prog!!!

Exactly. The people that disagree with this will also be the first to break down prog into 1,905 sub genres, and argue about why each is what and who and when.

Ditto to both posts.
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Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

So what about the thousands of bands already listed here without said ‘prog pedegree’? We merely nuke em all alongside the thousands of reviews written for said albums?
Nahh...such an idea as making a prog site with altogether new ways of looking at the inclusion parametres..well that requires a new site
I'm with you. I like ProgArchives just the way it is now and I wouldn't change anything - apart from adding Annie Haslam to the PA database. Wink
 
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Originally posted by progmatic progmatic wrote:

Harbour of Tears is fantastic as well.
 
I agree. I was lucky enough to find that album in my local FOPP record store years ago and I bought it without even needing to hear it first. I still regard Harbour of Tears as one of Camel's finest albums.
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