Exclusionsist or Inclusivist?

I have read very detailed recollections of forum member TODDLER capturing how prog got relegated to a sideshow in the 80s, of how it became difficult to play Zappa songs in clubs...in America, mind, not just Britain.  The album sales figures speak for themselves and I don't need to reiterate it.  Only Marillion achieved telling success on that front and they still could not approach the success of Floyd or Tull.  Moving Pictures would appear to be the last blockbuster prog rock album for a very long time, to be beaten only by OK Computer nearly two decades later.  I am not convinced the collapse was restricted only to Britain.  The scene began to dwindle in Italy as well.  What prog was left in Europe was mainly the avant/RIO groups. A parallel development was the relegation of jazz in America.  So it wasn't just prog, long winded improvisational music generally began to face a tough time.  To believe that prog was as healthy and robust a music scene in the 80s as in the 70s is to deny this seismic cultural shift in music happened at all.  None of this is to support an overly British centric view of prog, especially the one that holds symph prog as the basis of all prog.  I am making neutral observations based on various articles and reflections such as TODDLER's that I have read about the time.

Edited by rogerthat - April 13 2014 at 02:00

Wobbler, Black Bonzo, Transatlantic, Big Big Train etc. I do have many of their albums - 'Prog' - indeed, 'Progressive', in the true sense, probably not. This is the PROG archives, as opposed to Progressive Rock Archives, even though it's the 'definitive resource for Progressive Rock'.   Go figure ???
It comes back to that tough one - Prog vs Progressive.
Radiohead seem to be Progressive, but I wouldn't call them a Prog band......(man, this is doing my head in.....) where does one draw the line ??

If prog died in 79'  then what are all those "prog" bands since are playing?

Svetonio wrote: rogerthat wrote: Although I voted for option 1, I think the changes in prog since the 70s are more in terms of sound or maybe the domination of guitar rather than keyboard. The 70s already covered a very wide gamut and even if that alone formed the basis of deciding what bands today could be called prog, it would still be a very inclusive term because it would include symph, avant prog, prog metal (basis the inclusion of Rush), jazz rock, etc. While I am from the younger brigade, I am sympathetic to what it is that those who think prog died in 1979 are grappling with. Prog as a concentrated scene of music seems to have collapsed by the end of the 70s.   Today it's more about new bands with members who grew up listening to prog wanting to make some prog of their own and these bands are scattered across the globe catering to smaller fanbases. Progressive rock does not cease to exist in 1979. All that happened then was that the greatest bands of British progressive rock movement (scene) lost their compass, shamelessly released a number of too commercial albums, although they still to be progressive rock in some way. However, that was not the case in the rest of the world; e.g. Zappa at the end of seventies and in the eighties was released the masterpieces: 1979 May      Orchestral Favorities       Sep      Joe's Garage Act I Nov      Joe's Garage Acts II & II            1981      May      Tinsel Town Rebellion            Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                  Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar Some More              Return of the Son of Shut Up 'n Play Yer Guitar                   Sep      You Are What You Is             1982      May      Ship Arriving Too Late to Save a Drowning Witch             1983      Mar      The Man from Utopia              Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. I        1984      Aug      Boulez Conducts Zappa: The Perfect Stranger       Oct      Them or Us       Nov      Thing-Fish               1986   Jazz from Hell       1987      Jun      London Symphony Orchestra, Vol. II                   Broadway the Hard Way Once again, the history of progressive rock can not and should not be viewed only from the perspective of the British progressive rock movement (scene).

Edited by rogerthat - April 12 2014 at 23:33

ExittheLemming wrote: Man With Hat wrote: A bit of a loaded poll really. Obviously the second choice is stupid. But that doesn't mean we should add every piece of music or band that is slightly odd or quirky, even to go so far as to include non rock acts just because they may be progressive. For the site, I believe we should be more exclusionist, but that doesn't mean I believe prog died in '79. Interesting perception of how the poll is deemed to be 'loaded' given that its creator voted for option 2 presumably on the basis of either his sincere belief or sincere stupidity. I notice however that you mix the use of Prog and progressive in your post which might go some way towards explaining this confusion but certainly helps identify one of the misconceptions the poll was created in the first place to highlight. I mean it would be very difficult to make an argument that Krautrock, RPI, Canterbury, Zeuhl or Neo prog (OK this flourished for a while in the 80's) etc were actually still evolving to qualify as contemporary in 2014? You say we should be more exclusionist but don't state how we can bring this about i.e. do we continue to use sub genre definitions that are a measure of a historical bygone Prog or should we reevaluate the sub genre definitions to assimilate contemporary developments in progressive rock/ progressive music?. Do people think the existing definitions are wide enough to accommodate modern trends etc That's the sort of debate I wanted to stimulate.

Hey man, I only used your terminology.

And perhaps I misunderstood the poll then. When reading the question, I didn't think this was a prog vs progressive discussion. For the record, I think there is plenty of room on PA for both the style and the spirit of prog/progressive (assuming it's still rock/rock based of course).

And since you asked, I like the subgenres the way they are (for the most part...I certainly wouldn't sack them...except prog-related ).

I hear bagpipes...

Svetonio wrote: Once again, the history of progressive rock can not and should not be viewed only from the perspective of the British progressive rock movement (scene).

Has anyone made that argument or even implied same throughout the entire thread so far?

There are almost as many as yet undiscovered prog bands from the '70s and '80s as there are modern ones, and every time I think we've found every dusty old group no one cared about then or now, yet another one floats to the surface.  There's plenty new & old to keep us all busy for a long, long time.

Should PA consider new rock bands that are progressive?  Sure we should.  But we'll also continue looking behind us because without that history, we're nothing.

Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote: Progressive winds are blowing stronger than ever! Not only with bands aligned to the kind of styles that orginated in the vintage years, but others incorporating modern inluences to be truly progressive. I think both are amazing, and we should consider ourselves so lucky to have endless interpretations of `prog' and `progressive' music to enjoy! `P.A' is cetainly not a museum! It's a ever-expanding document to what's come before and what is to come!

Exactomundo Be Archives and Museum are to be two different things; i.e. an archivist is not a museum's curator. An (prog) archivist collects, acquires, edit, review, evaluate, inventory, categorize archival material. It prepares for the use of interested parties: researchers, fans, young musicians, and others.
A museum's curator is strictly oriented to the things that belong to a particular time. The primary role of the archivist is to enable and facilitate access to archival material, to bring closer various categories of users. About how much quality, responsible and conscientious archivists do their job depends largely on how many kinds of resources will be available, and what the future generation to know everything about, in this case, progressive rock of yesterday, today and tomorrow.


Edited by Svetonio - April 12 2014 at 21:14

Man With Hat wrote: A bit of a loaded poll really.

Hear, Hear