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Topic ClosedThe most musically complex prog band(s)?

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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2008 at 04:52
Originally posted by kibble_alex kibble_alex wrote:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2008 at 16:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2008 at 14:06

To me complex and avant garde can sound similar but come from a different place. Avant to me is throwing convention completely out the window and avoiding traditional structure, often introducing intentional chaos, which can inspired, mindblowing, complete noise, self-indulgent, useless, and often combinations of them all.

Complex involves multiple interconnecting parts, the more and more involved the connections the more "complex." This gain be inspired, mindblowing, sterile, boring, self-indulgent, useless.....you get the idea.

Mr. Bungle, Zappa, Crimson all used elements of both. Gentle Giant is more complex than avant garde, while they certainly redefined convention, nothing ever felt random, in fact, rarely even improvised.

Now that that's clear as mud....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2008 at 20:01
When Zappa was in his all instrumental mode, it was down right scary! Especially when he tossed in some Varese/Bartok  inspired flavorings. The man was ridiculously complex and his music shone . Tongue
Mahavishnu Orchestra, Magma, Soft Machine, Giant, RTF, Weather Report , Isotope were some of the more head scratching stuff. Big%20smile  Now off course, there are new bands who are mathematical/mach 3/ orbital and complex simply for the throne.Sleepy  Fripp once said that the most complex note he ever played was..... silence. Wink


Edited by tszirmay - October 08 2008 at 20:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2008 at 19:51
Frank Zappa, Gentle Giant
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2008 at 20:42
I like to make a difference between "complex" and "complicated", between rich and unclear.

Anyway, Gente Giant (King of Counterpoint), Henry Cow, and Zappa come to mind. Have you heared the WAZOO cd, by Zappa + his big band live in 72? wow, how can THAT come out from a human (guitarist ) brain....?

Ah, and I've recently heard an album by Ben Monder, "Oceano", you have the impression there are 2 guitars, but no you're wrong - he's an alien.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 03 2008 at 16:25
I don't know who is the *most* complex prog band, but I would give my vote to Osanna.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:28
Originally posted by jimidom jimidom wrote:

Originally posted by faceofdoomness faceofdoomness wrote:

I'd say the most musically complex band is Dun a Zeuhl Prog band from France.. their music is so dense, discordant and complex that it even makes Gentle Giant seem simple. There's so any time signature changes and so many over lapping instruments and lots of complex rhythms that they somehow pull off.

Just listen to the entirety of their only mp3 on this site: Arrakis

My interest is piqued. I'll have to check that out. Sounds like a challenging listen! Cool


Oh yes it is. Imagine Zappa playing Zeuhl.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:20
Originally posted by faceofdoomness faceofdoomness wrote:

I'd say the most musically complex band is Dun a Zeuhl Prog band from France.. their music is so dense, discordant and complex that it even makes Gentle Giant seem simple. There's so any time signature changes and so many over lapping instruments and lots of complex rhythms that they somehow pull off.

Just listen to the entirety of their only mp3 on this site: Arrakis

My interest is piqued. I'll have to check that out. Sounds like a challenging listen! Cool
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:00
You're all dreaming. Britney Spears and UB40 (mmm but I'm afraid they're not too progressive... Clown)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 01 2008 at 00:42
I would say the most "out there" musically is Zappa. There's also some mathcore bands like Protest the Hero that are basically made to be complex and uninteresting. Okay maybe that's a little too biased, It's not really my bag, but they have the strangest mix of time signatures.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:46
I'd say the most musically complex band is Dun a Zeuhl Prog band from France.. their music is so dense, discordant and complex that it even makes Gentle Giant seem simple. There's so any time signature changes and so many over lapping instruments and lots of complex rhythms that they somehow pull off.

Just listen to the entirety of their only mp3 on this site: Arrakis

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:36
For the only few bands I know, I have to say, King Crimson and Frank Zappa
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:28
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by zachfive zachfive wrote:

A few posts back Camel was getting some flack for not being "complex". While I agree with the comments that were said(musics not hard to play...) I think its necessary to exclude Andy Ward. I always thought his percussions were "technical" enough to called "complex"(If that makes any sense) Not only that, but he has worked with other bands that were thrown in the "complex" catigory, i.e Marillon and Caravan. So lets at least here for Mr.Ward.



He is very good, but I haven't though of Marillion, or Caravan for that matter as complex.  I think Caravan is one of the less complex Canterbury Scene bands, and I've never thought of Marillion as complex (Neo-Prog, generally, is considered one of the least complex progressive rock forms).

EDIT: Just my ignorance, and without researching, what has he done with Caravan and Marillion?  I know he has worked on Sinclair's Caravan of Dreams (and notably with the great Canterbury Scene personality Hugh Hopper).
 
I didn't know of any connection with Caravan, but Ward did play with Marillion, albeit very briefly and I don't believe anything he did actually was recorded.  He showed up for a short time between Pointer and Moseley.  In fact, if you watch the video for Garden Party (I think that's the one), Andy Ward appears in the video.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:10

Except GENTLE GIANT and YES of the TFTO album,try YEZDA URFA...you'll be blown,that's really complex but creative music!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2008 at 23:11
I beleive that there's a certain level of compositional complexity too. There's a ton of classical music that doesn't sound terribly complex but there's so much going on and variations based on the instrument that I would call it complex. Like people above have said, having multiple instruments playing at the same time would add to complexity.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2008 at 22:41

This is all a bit of a t**ser. The only way you can judge complexity is at a playing level, not a listening level. That is- which grade would they be placed in at a music examination level: Grade 1 (easiest)  to Licentiate (most difficult, with a very small percentage of players being able to attain the skill needed to play them). Of course band music has the added problem of being group music, so there are other considerations of how to rate them such as contrapuntal problems (is it easy or extremely difficult for the group to play this together and keep the timing true). A good example of this may be certain Yes songs, which have 4 instruments playing completely different parts that come together as a whole in some strange magical meld, that are not that difficult to play as solos, but putting the four parts together and in time adds to the difficulty of the piece, astronomically.

So how do you judge music complexity?



Edited by cobb2 - September 28 2008 at 22:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2008 at 21:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by jimidom jimidom wrote:

To my ears, complex music means music which is not only challenging for the artist to perform but also challenging for the listener to listen to. Among the challenges are shifting time signatures, crazy atonality, and occasionally speed and technical prowess. In other words, music which sounds like anything but to the average listener.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2008 at 13:38
Originally posted by zachfive zachfive wrote:

A few posts back Camel was getting some flack for not being "complex". While I agree with the comments that were said(musics not hard to play...) I think its necessary to exclude Andy Ward. I always thought his percussions were "technical" enough to called "complex"(If that makes any sense) Not only that, but he has worked with other bands that were thrown in the "complex" catigory, i.e Marillon and Caravan. So lets at least here for Mr.Ward.



He is very good, but I haven't though of Marillion, or Caravan for that matter as complex.  I think Caravan is one of the less complex Canterbury Scene bands, and I've never thought of Marillion as complex (Neo-Prog, generally, is considered one of the least complex progressive rock forms).

EDIT: Just my ignorance, and without researching, what has he done with Caravan and Marillion?  I know he has worked on Sinclair's Caravan of Dreams (and notably with the great Canterbury Scene personality Hugh Hopper).


Edited by Logan - September 27 2008 at 13:58
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