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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: October 13 2008 at 04:52 |
kibble_alex wrote:
MESHUGGAH
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The Pessimist
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
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Posted: October 11 2008 at 16:16 |
MESHUGGAH
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"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."
Arnold Schoenberg
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: October 11 2008 at 14:06 |
To me complex and avant garde can sound similar but come from a different place. Avant to me is throwing convention completely out the window and avoiding traditional structure, often introducing intentional chaos, which can inspired, mindblowing, complete noise, self-indulgent, useless, and often combinations of them all.
Complex involves multiple interconnecting parts, the more and more involved the connections the more "complex." This gain be inspired, mindblowing, sterile, boring, self-indulgent, useless.....you get the idea.
Mr. Bungle, Zappa, Crimson all used elements of both. Gentle Giant is more complex than avant garde, while they certainly redefined convention, nothing ever felt random, in fact, rarely even improvised.
Now that that's clear as mud....
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: October 08 2008 at 20:01 |
When Zappa was in his all instrumental mode, it was down right scary! Especially when he tossed in some Varese/Bartok inspired flavorings. The man was ridiculously complex and his music shone .
Mahavishnu Orchestra, Magma, Soft Machine, Giant, RTF, Weather Report , Isotope were some of the more head scratching stuff. Now off course, there are new bands who are mathematical/mach 3/ orbital and complex simply for the throne. Fripp once said that the most complex note he ever played was..... silence.
Edited by tszirmay - October 08 2008 at 20:02
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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meptune
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 231
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Posted: October 08 2008 at 19:51 |
Frank Zappa, Gentle Giant
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Louison79
Forum Newbie
Joined: October 05 2008
Location: Boston/Paris
Status: Offline
Points: 2
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Posted: October 05 2008 at 20:42 |
I like to make a difference between "complex" and "complicated", between rich and unclear.
Anyway, Gente Giant (King of Counterpoint), Henry Cow, and Zappa come to mind. Have you heared the WAZOO cd, by Zappa + his big band live in 72? wow, how can THAT come out from a human (guitarist ) brain....?
Ah, and I've recently heard an album by Ben Monder, "Oceano", you have the impression there are 2 guitars, but no you're wrong - he's an alien.
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" `Twas brillig, and the slithy toves / Did gyre and gimble in the wabe / All mimsy were the borogoves / And the mome raths outgrabe." (Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky)
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Lionheart
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 106
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Posted: October 03 2008 at 16:25 |
I don't know who is the *most* complex prog band, but I would give my vote to Osanna.
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AlexUC
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 06 2007
Location: Noveria
Status: Offline
Points: 392
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Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:28 |
Oh yes it is. Imagine Zappa playing Zeuhl.
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This is not my beautiful house...
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jimidom
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2007
Location: Houston, TX USA
Status: Offline
Points: 570
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Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:20 |
faceofdoomness wrote:
I'd say the most musically complex band is Dun a Zeuhl Prog band from France.. their music is so dense, discordant and complex that it even makes Gentle Giant seem simple. There's so any time signature changes and so many over lapping instruments and lots of complex rhythms that they somehow pull off.
Just listen to the entirety of their only mp3 on this site: Arrakis
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My interest is piqued. I'll have to check that out. Sounds like a challenging listen!
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"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST
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AlexUC
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 06 2007
Location: Noveria
Status: Offline
Points: 392
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Posted: October 01 2008 at 11:00 |
You're all dreaming. Britney Spears and UB40 (mmm but I'm afraid they're not too progressive... )
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This is not my beautiful house...
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progvortex
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 242
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Posted: October 01 2008 at 00:42 |
I would say the most "out there" musically is Zappa. There's also some mathcore bands like Protest the Hero that are basically made to be complex and uninteresting. Okay maybe that's a little too biased, It's not really my bag, but they have the strangest mix of time signatures.
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Life is like a beanstalk... isn't it?
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faceofdoomness
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2008
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 153
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Posted: September 30 2008 at 22:46 |
I'd say the most musically complex band is Dun a Zeuhl Prog band from France.. their music is so dense, discordant and complex that it even makes Gentle Giant seem simple. There's so any time signature changes and so many over lapping instruments and lots of complex rhythms that they somehow pull off.
Just listen to the entirety of their only mp3 on this site: Arrakis
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"To fully appreciate Music, one must have an open mind." -Someone...
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alanerc
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2007
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 278
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Posted: September 30 2008 at 18:36 |
For the only few bands I know, I have to say, King Crimson and Frank Zappa
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:28 |
Logan wrote:
zachfive wrote:
A few posts back Camel was getting some flack for not being "complex". While I agree with the comments that were said(musics not hard to play...) I think its necessary to exclude Andy Ward. I always thought his percussions were "technical" enough to called "complex"(If that makes any sense) Not only that, but he has worked with other bands that were thrown in the "complex" catigory, i.e Marillon and Caravan. So lets at least here for Mr.Ward. |
He is very good, but I haven't though of Marillion, or Caravan for that matter as complex. I think Caravan is one of the less complex Canterbury Scene bands, and I've never thought of Marillion as complex (Neo-Prog, generally, is considered one of the least complex progressive rock forms).
EDIT: Just my ignorance, and without researching, what has he done with Caravan and Marillion? I know he has worked on Sinclair's Caravan of Dreams (and notably with the great Canterbury Scene personality Hugh Hopper).
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I didn't know of any connection with Caravan, but Ward did play with Marillion, albeit very briefly and I don't believe anything he did actually was recorded. He showed up for a short time between Pointer and Moseley. In fact, if you watch the video for Garden Party (I think that's the one), Andy Ward appears in the video.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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apps79
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 15 2007
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 1551
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Posted: September 30 2008 at 13:10 |
Except GENTLE GIANT and YES of the TFTO album,try YEZDA URFA...you'll be blown,that's really complex but creative music!
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topofsm
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 17 2008
Location: Arizona, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1698
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Posted: September 28 2008 at 23:11 |
I beleive that there's a certain level of compositional complexity too. There's a ton of classical music that doesn't sound terribly complex but there's so much going on and variations based on the instrument that I would call it complex. Like people above have said, having multiple instruments playing at the same time would add to complexity.
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cobb2
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 25 2007
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 415
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Posted: September 28 2008 at 22:41 |
This is all a bit of a t**ser. The only way you can judge complexity is at a playing level, not a listening level. That is- which grade would they be placed in at a music examination level: Grade 1 (easiest) to Licentiate (most difficult, with a very small percentage of players being able to attain the skill needed to play them). Of course band music has the added problem of being group music, so there are other considerations of how to rate them such as contrapuntal problems (is it easy or extremely difficult for the group to play this together and keep the timing true). A good example of this may be certain Yes songs, which have 4 instruments playing completely different parts that come together as a whole in some strange magical meld, that are not that difficult to play as solos, but putting the four parts together and in time adds to the difficulty of the piece, astronomically. So how do you judge music complexity?
Edited by cobb2 - September 28 2008 at 22:47
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TRIFIVE5000
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 27 2008
Location: Italy - Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 32
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Posted: September 28 2008 at 21:08 |
Yeah jimidom, i'm going with you. ur the truth!
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Living on a lighted stage
Approaches the unreal
For those who think and feel
In touch with some reality
Beyond the gilded cage!
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Guitar Noir
Forum Groupie
Joined: September 24 2008
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 88
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Posted: September 27 2008 at 17:19 |
jimidom wrote:
To my ears, complex music means music which is not only challenging for the artist to perform but also challenging for the listener to listen to. Among the challenges are shifting time signatures, crazy atonality, and occasionally speed and technical prowess. In other words, music which sounds like anything but to the average listener. |
Zero Hour
Twisted Into Form
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"Sometimes the afterglow isn't enough and we have to move on." Steve Hackett
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 35750
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Posted: September 27 2008 at 13:38 |
zachfive wrote:
A few posts back Camel was getting some flack for not being "complex". While I agree with the comments that were said(musics not hard to play...) I think its necessary to exclude Andy Ward. I always thought his percussions were "technical" enough to called "complex"(If that makes any sense) Not only that, but he has worked with other bands that were thrown in the "complex" catigory, i.e Marillon and Caravan. So lets at least here for Mr.Ward. |
He is very good, but I haven't though of Marillion, or Caravan for that matter as complex. I think Caravan is one of the less complex Canterbury Scene bands, and I've never thought of Marillion as complex (Neo-Prog, generally, is considered one of the least complex progressive rock forms). EDIT: Just my ignorance, and without researching, what has he done with Caravan and Marillion? I know he has worked on Sinclair's Caravan of Dreams (and notably with the great Canterbury Scene personality Hugh Hopper).
Edited by Logan - September 27 2008 at 13:58
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