Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 06:16
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Neither the word "opinion" nor the word "judgement" are used in this IEP article, let alone the combination "objective judgement/opinion" because it would be contrary to what they're explaining. Objective opinions or judgements do not exist - it is in essence impossible.

Not "opinion" as I used this word to explain "judgement" but: "Consequent judgments are objective or subjective to varying degrees, and we divide reality into objective reality and subjective reality. " (the next last sentence in the introductory section)

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 06:07
^ Neither the word "opinion" nor the word "judgement" are used in this IEP article, let alone the combination "objective judgement/opinion" because it would be contrary to what they're explaining. Objective opinions or judgements do not exist - it is in essence impossible.

Edit: I think I spelled "judgement" when searching for it, so it returned no results since in the article it is spelled "judgment", and it is quite extensively used. This doesn't change my point, though.



Edited by suitkees - July 30 2023 at 07:53

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 05:53
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

First there is an awkward and unexplained/unelaborated shift from "objectivity" to "truth", nevertheless two very different concepts (this maybe shows the shortcomings of dictionaries, as opposed to encyclopedias, when it comes to - philosophical - concepts.

The contradiction is here: stating that "truth" is independent from individual subjectivity and then daring to say
Quote A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
If we consider "truth" to be a statement about (objective) reality, than this statement can only be made by a subject and thus truth can never be objective. This means that "truth conditions" can never be met without being caused by a sentient bieng and thus not without bias.

I agree it's a problem, and instead of "truth" I find much better IEP's term "subjective reality", as they divide reality into objective and subjective, and the point of view that judgements (opinions) are objective (corresponding to the objective reality) or subjective to varying degrees. ( https://iep.utm.edu/objectiv/ , the introductory section)

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
rdtprog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams

Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 05:03
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Unfortunateley those phenomenologists (Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre) after seeing through what could get rid of that subject-object duality have come to a desperate conclusion about what they have discovered, which is that existence is not so much fun when you realize that you are "nothing" in this world...

I don't think any of the philosophers you refer to would draw the conclusion you try to put in their shoes...


One has this conclusion : You discover your existential anguish, the other that life is to be worry. it's not very far for what I said...
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran







Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 04:26
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Unfortunateley those phenomenologists (Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre) after seeing through what could get rid of that subject-object duality have come to a desperate conclusion about what they have discovered, which is that existence is not so much fun when you realize that you are "nothing" in this world...

I don't think any of the philosophers you refer to would draw the conclusion you try to put in their shoes...

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 04:14
Kees already alludes to this: The major problem with the concept of objectivity is that to the extent that it refers to anything independent of (individual) mind and perception, mind and perception can never secure objectivity, because it is out of their reach. And if individual minds can't access it, neither can society.

Philosophers and others have discussed objectivity a lot and have come up with ideas about objectivity that refer to something that mind and language can grasp more easily. All these are controversial though, none is without problems. Here are a few: You could call "objective" statements/facts/truths that can be arrived at on the basis of "logical necessities"/formalised logical rules such as mathematical truths (these usually are consequences of premises that themselves can be questioned). You could generally refer to "playing by the rules" within a formal system as "objectively correct", which would then be relative to the rules of course (note that in chess it is far more easy to see whether rules are violated than in football/soccer as chess itself is formalised). The positivists would acknowledge observables, i.e., statements that can be clearly checked and verified or falsified on the basis of observations; those verified would be the objective ones. The law system and other decision making institutions would have rules that are meant to secure impartiality; although you can ultimately not verify impartiality, often you can identify partiality and try to explicitly avoid it. There are also ideas that state that consensus or "consensus among experts" are a key ingredient of objectivity, but these accounts will usually have to deal with the uncomfortable fact that consensus will not normally comprise 100% of the people (or even the experts) and the hard problems are (a) who counts as qualified enough to take part and (b) how many deviants would you still allow in the group defined by (a)? Furthermore in thought experiments you can easily imagine a 100% consensus on something that "in reality" is wrong. That said, neither "logical necessity" nor verifiable observation nor impartiality nor rules can be upheld without overwhelming consensus regarding their basis (unless of course you'd accept an unquestionable absolute authority). 

A fun fact is that Daston and Gallison in their Objectivity book of 2007 trace the history of the concept and the change of its meanings in science, and they argue that, if I remember it correctly, around the 18th century the terms of objectivity and subjectivity switched meanings, i.e., before they were used closer to the opposite of what we'd think of them now. (This has to be understood within a framework of continuous gradual change of the use of the concept also at any other time.)

And Humberto Maturana once said, referring to the role of objectivity claims in social discourse: "A claim to objective knowledge is an absolute demand for obedience."


Edited by Lewian - July 30 2023 at 04:23
Back to Top
rdtprog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams

Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 04:09
Unfortunateley those phenomenologists (Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre) after seeing through what could get rid of that subject-object duality have come to a desperate conclusion about what they have discovered, which is that existence is not so much fun when you realize that you are "nothing" in this world...
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran







Back to Top
suitkees View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 19 2020
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 9050
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 03:11
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I better tell that I've edited my OP to this:

"or 2 . objectivity - the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, 
or imagination). [+] A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused 
by the mind of a sentient being. ( according to  https://dbpedia.org/page/Objectivity_(philosophy)  )."

That's a very awkward definition, because it contains a conceptual contradiction, and I wouldn't think a dictionary (let alone an encyclopedia) would present it in this way, today. So I looked at the source and understand that dbpedia is roaming the internet for definitions and is apparently lacking in analysing what they have found. The good thing is that they link to their source and things explain themselves a little (despite the fact that the source they link to is not active anymore): it is from a research project on Emmanuel Kant, an 18th century philosopher. Philosophy has made some way since then, and it is interesting to see that this definition of "objectivity" shows exactly the step that Kant didn't dare to make. We had to wait for Nietsche to have that courage...

First there is an awkward and unexplained/unelaborated shift from "objectivity" to "truth", nevertheless two very different concepts (this maybe shows the shortcomings of dictionaries, as opposed to encyclopedias, when it comes to - philosophical - concepts.

The contradiction is here: stating that "truth" is independent from individual subjectivity and then daring to say
Quote A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being.
If we consider "truth" to be a statement about (objective) reality, than this statement can only be made by a subject and thus truth can never be objective. This means that "truth conditions" can never be met without being caused by a sentient bieng and thus not without bias.

As Nietsche said: "Truth is an illusion of which we have forgotten that it is one." (This makes Nietsche so fun to read: he is "philosophizing with a hammer"). It comes from an essay that explains it maybe a bit better (and it is a very readable, relatively short and very interesting essay titled "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense"):
Quote What then is truth? A movable host of metaphors, metonymies, and anthropomorphisms: in short, a sum of human relations which have been poetically and rhetorically intensified, transferred, and embellished, and which, after long usage, seem to a people to be fixed, canonical, and binding. Truths are illusions which we have forgotten are illusions — they are metaphors that have become worn out and have been drained of sensuous force, coins which have lost their embossing and are now considered as metal and no longer as coins.
Later philosphers - like Husserl, Heidegger, Gadamer,  just to mention them - elaborated this in a more fundamental philosphy (phenomenology, ontology, epsitemology...).

The article from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosphy is much more elaborated and thus nuanced about the notion of objectivity. Point 2f from this text is in that sense much connected to my Nietsche quotes above:
Originally posted by <a href=https://iep.utm.edu/objectiv/ target=_blank rel=nofollow>IEP</a> IEP wrote:

Despite plausible ways of arguing that intersubjective disagreement indicates error and agreement indicates some probability of truth, defenses of objective knowledge all face the philosophically daunting challenge of providing a cogent argument showing that any purported “mark” of reliability (including apparent intersubjective agreement) actually does confer a high likelihood of truth. The task seems to presuppose some method of determining objective truth in the very process of establishing certain sorts of subjective impressions as reliable indicators of truth. That is, we require some independent (non-subjective) way of determining which subjective impressions support knowledge of objective reality before we can find subjectively accessible “markers” of the reliable subjective impressions. What could such a method be, since every method of knowledge, judgment, or even thought seems quite clearly to go on within the realm of subjective impressions? One cannot get out of one’s subjective impressions, it seems, to test them for reliability. The prospects for knowledge of the objective world are hampered by our essential confinement within subjective impressions.

So, in short: even in philosophy the notion of objectivity is a very much debated notion and there is not necessarily a consensus about it. In everyday language the notions of objectivity and subjectivity are often used in a very confusing way, which is regularly shown also on these forums here.

The razamataz is a pain in the bum
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 02:37

Wikipedia defines "subjective" and "objective" in this way:

"The distinction between objectivity and subjectivity is a basic idea of philosophy, particularly epistemology. It is often related to discussions of consciousnessagencypersonhoodphilosophy of mindphilosophy of languagerealitytruth, and communication (for example in narrative communication and journalism).
  • Something is objective if it is true even outside of individuals' minds (their biasesperceptionemotionsopinions, or imagination). If a claim is true even when considering it independently from the viewpoint of a sentient being, it is objectively true. Scientific objectivity refers to the ability to judge without partiality or external influence. Moral objectivity calls for moral or ethical codes to be compared to one another through a set of universal facts or a universal perspective and not through differing conflicting perspectives.[1] Journalistic objectivity is the intention to be unbiased, impartial, or politically neutral in the reporting of facts and news.
  • Something is subjective if it is true only according to individuals' minds (biases, perceptions, opinions, etc.) or conscious experiences.[2] If a claim is true exclusively when considering the claim from the viewpoint of a sentient being, it is subjectively true. For example, one person may consider the weather to be pleasantly warm, and another person may consider the same weather to be too hot; both views are subjective. The word subjectivity comes from subject in a philosophical sense, meaning an individual who possesses unique conscious experiences, such as perspectives, feelings, beliefs, and desires,[2][3] or who (consciously) acts upon or wields power over some other entity (an object).[4]"  
  • ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_and_subjectivity )


Edited by David_D - July 30 2023 at 02:41
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2023 at 02:25

I better tell that I've edited my OP to this:

"or 2 . objectivity - the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, 
or imagination). [+] A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused 
by the mind of a sentient being. ( according to  https://dbpedia.org/page/Objectivity_(philosophy)  )."




Edited by David_D - July 30 2023 at 02:51
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
David_D View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 26 2010
Location: Copenhagen
Status: Offline
Points: 15555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2023 at 09:08

In philosophy, as far as they've been found meaningful/good to use, the terms subjective and objective have been defined 
something like this:

subjective - relating to an object as it exists in the mind, as opposed to the thing as it exists in reality (the thing in itself) 
(according to dictionary.com)

1. objective (reality) - exists independent of the subject’s perception of it (according to Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 
or 2 . objectivity - the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, 
or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused 
by the mind of a sentient being. ( according to  https://dbpedia.org/page/Objectivity_(philosophy)  ). 

But what to think about these terms?

Edit:
I think the terms subjective and objective in general and roughly speaking are mainly used like this:

subjective - 1. as it seems to be to or is appreciated by some individuals, or 2. as it appears to the human mind in general

objective - 1. possessing general validity, or 2. related to reality as it supposes to be outside the human mind 

I hope you'll find this thread interesting! Smile


Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 17:09
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 345

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 1.016 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.