![]() |
What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"? |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 345 |
Author | ||||
David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15555 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
Not "opinion" as I used this word to explain "judgement" but: "Consequent judgments are objective or subjective to varying degrees, and we divide reality into objective reality and subjective reality. " (the next last sentence in the introductory section) |
||||
quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
|
||||
![]() |
||||
suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
^ Neither the word "opinion" nor the word "judgement" are used in this IEP article, let alone the combination "objective judgement/opinion" because it would be contrary to what they're explaining. Objective opinions or judgements do not exist - it is in essence impossible. Edit: I think I spelled "judgement" when searching for it, so it returned no results since in the article it is spelled "judgment", and it is quite extensively used. This doesn't change my point, though. Edited by suitkees - July 30 2023 at 07:53 |
||||
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
||||
![]() |
||||
David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15555 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
I agree it's a problem, and instead of "truth" I find much better IEP's term "subjective reality", as they divide reality into objective and subjective, and the point of view that judgements (opinions) are objective (corresponding to the objective reality) or subjective to varying degrees. ( https://iep.utm.edu/objectiv/ , the introductory section) |
||||
quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
|
||||
![]() |
||||
rdtprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams Joined: April 04 2009 Location: Mtl, QC Status: Offline Points: 5387 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
One has this conclusion : You discover your existential anguish, the other that life is to be worry. it's not very far for what I said...
|
||||
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran |
||||
![]() |
||||
suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
I don't think any of the philosophers you refer to would draw the conclusion you try to put in their shoes...
|
||||
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
||||
![]() |
||||
Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15146 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
Kees already alludes to this: The major problem with the concept of objectivity is that to the extent that it refers to anything independent of (individual) mind and perception, mind and perception can never secure objectivity, because it is out of their reach. And if individual minds can't access it, neither can society. Philosophers and others have discussed objectivity a lot and have come up with ideas about objectivity that refer to something that mind and language can grasp more easily. All these are controversial though, none is without problems. Here are a few: You could call "objective" statements/facts/truths that can be arrived at on the basis of "logical necessities"/formalised logical rules such as mathematical truths (these usually are consequences of premises that themselves can be questioned). You could generally refer to "playing by the rules" within a formal system as "objectively correct", which would then be relative to the rules of course (note that in chess it is far more easy to see whether rules are violated than in football/soccer as chess itself is formalised). The positivists would acknowledge observables, i.e., statements that can be clearly checked and verified or falsified on the basis of observations; those verified would be the objective ones. The law system and other decision making institutions would have rules that are meant to secure impartiality; although you can ultimately not verify impartiality, often you can identify partiality and try to explicitly avoid it. There are also ideas that state that consensus or "consensus among experts" are a key ingredient of objectivity, but these accounts will usually have to deal with the uncomfortable fact that consensus will not normally comprise 100% of the people (or even the experts) and the hard problems are (a) who counts as qualified enough to take part and (b) how many deviants would you still allow in the group defined by (a)? Furthermore in thought experiments you can easily imagine a 100% consensus on something that "in reality" is wrong. That said, neither "logical necessity" nor verifiable observation nor impartiality nor rules can be upheld without overwhelming consensus regarding their basis (unless of course you'd accept an unquestionable absolute authority). A fun fact is that Daston and Gallison in their Objectivity book of 2007 trace the history of the concept and the change of its meanings in science, and they argue that, if I remember it correctly, around the 18th century the terms of objectivity and subjectivity switched meanings, i.e., before they were used closer to the opposite of what we'd think of them now. (This has to be understood within a framework of continuous gradual change of the use of the concept also at any other time.) And Humberto Maturana once said, referring to the role of objectivity claims in social discourse: "A claim to objective knowledge is an absolute demand for obedience."
Edited by Lewian - July 30 2023 at 04:23 |
||||
![]() |
||||
rdtprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams Joined: April 04 2009 Location: Mtl, QC Status: Offline Points: 5387 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
Unfortunateley those phenomenologists (Husserl, Heidegger, Sartre) after
seeing through what could get rid of that subject-object duality have
come to a desperate conclusion about what they have discovered, which is
that existence is not so much fun when you realize that you are
"nothing" in this world...
|
||||
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran |
||||
![]() |
||||
suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
That's a very awkward definition, because it contains a
conceptual contradiction, and I wouldn't think a dictionary (let alone
an encyclopedia) would present it in this way, today. So I looked at the
source and understand that dbpedia is roaming the internet for
definitions and is apparently lacking in analysing what they have found.
The good thing is that they link to their source and things explain
themselves a little (despite the fact that the source they link to is
not active anymore): it is from a research project on Emmanuel Kant, an
18th century philosopher. Philosophy has made some way since then, and
it is interesting to see that this definition of "objectivity" shows
exactly the step that Kant didn't dare to make. We had to wait for
Nietsche to have that courage... First there is
an awkward and unexplained/unelaborated shift from "objectivity" to
"truth", nevertheless two very different concepts (this maybe shows the
shortcomings of dictionaries, as opposed to encyclopedias, when it comes
to - philosophical - concepts. The
contradiction is here: stating that "truth" is independent from
individual subjectivity and then daring to say
If
we consider "truth" to be a statement about (objective) reality, than
this statement can only be made by a subject and thus truth can never be
objective. This means that "truth conditions" can never be met without
being caused by a sentient bieng and thus not without bias. As
Nietsche said: "Truth is an illusion of which we have forgotten that it
is one." (This makes Nietsche so fun to read: he is "philosophizing
with a hammer"). It comes from an essay that explains it maybe a bit
better (and it is a very readable, relatively short and very interesting
essay titled "On Truth and Lies in a Nonmoral Sense"):
Later
philosphers - like Husserl, Heidegger, Gadamer, just to mention them -
elaborated this in a more fundamental philosphy (phenomenology,
ontology, epsitemology...). The article from
the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosphy is much more elaborated and thus
nuanced about the notion of objectivity. Point 2f from this text is in
that sense much connected to my Nietsche quotes
above:
So, in short:
even in philosophy the notion of objectivity is a very much debated
notion and there is not necessarily a consensus about it. In everyday
language the notions of objectivity and subjectivity are often used in a
very confusing way, which is regularly shown also on these forums here. |
||||
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
||||
![]() |
||||
David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15555 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
Wikipedia defines "subjective" and "objective" in this way: "The distinction between objectivity and subjectivity is a basic idea of philosophy, particularly epistemology. It is often related to discussions of consciousness, agency, personhood, philosophy of mind, philosophy of language, reality, truth, and communication (for example in narrative communication and journalism).
Edited by David_D - July 30 2023 at 02:41 |
||||
quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
|
||||
![]() |
||||
David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15555 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
I better tell that I've edited my OP to this: "or 2 . objectivity - the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). [+] A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being. ( according to https://dbpedia.org/page/Objectivity_(philosophy) )." Edited by David_D - July 30 2023 at 02:51 |
||||
quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
|
||||
![]() |
||||
David_D ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 15555 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|||
In philosophy, as far as they've been found meaningful/good to use, the terms subjective and objective have been defined something like this: subjective - relating to an object as it exists in the mind, as opposed to the thing as it exists in reality (the thing in itself) (according to dictionary.com) 1. objective (reality) - exists independent of the subject’s perception of it (according to Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, or 2 . objectivity - the concept of truth independent from individual subjectivity (bias caused by one's perception, emotions, or imagination). A proposition is considered to have objective truth when its truth conditions are met without bias caused by the mind of a sentient being. ( according to https://dbpedia.org/page/Objectivity_(philosophy) ). But what to think about these terms? Edit: I think the terms subjective and objective in general and roughly speaking are mainly used like this: objective - 1. possessing general validity, or 2. related to reality as it supposes to be outside the human mind I hope you'll find this thread interesting!
![]() Edited by David_D - July 31 2023 at 17:09 |
||||
quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
|
||||
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1 345 |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |