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What’s your biggest gripe with the top 100
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M27Barney View Drop Down
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Fook me moshkito, can I ask you a simple question?
What colour is the sky on your planet?
I would guess that most of us normal.punters on here, dont buy the sheet music of ANYTHING we have in our cd collection. And then compare the music as lines on bits of paper....we listen to the fuzz and wah effects as it appeals or not, we differentiate between the solos on guitar, organ, piano or flute and we listen to the growling of death metal singers and determine its appeal and thus place it into the pigeonhole for connoseurs of death metal....you can study your bits of paper if you like...😎
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Once again we fall into the standard remarks that prog rock and, by extension, PA is flawed because it's sub genres are a cross breed of prog rock with foreign musical elements, when prog rock it self is rock mixed with different musical elements. Worse is the notion that these sub genres are only progressive within their own genres, as if that argument somehow cleverly dispels that these genres are not prog rock. Consider this: there's factual progression in a rock sub genre but that sub genre is still not prog rock!! Does that make sense? It's same as saying a women is only a little pregnant. She's either pregnant or she's not.
...

Defining "rock" or "prog rock" ... is different in many countries, so attempting to say that it is this, or that, is kinda crazy ... in the USA and England, you could say that "electricity" is the biggest element of all besides the natural culture connections for each country, and after those two countries, places like Japan did not exactly sit by wayside watching, with some of the very creative and inventive keyboards for a long time.

My one and only gripe, is that some folks are "determining" what music is by the sound ... not the composition and the music itself ... you take half the "metal" stuff and unplug it, and it sounds the same as anything else ... and that means, it SHOULD NOT be some kind of a genre, just because it "sounds" like this or that!

I simply wish that it was more about the music itself, and not the amplification and the effects used ... when you take the "notes" and place them on the staff ... you got nothing worthy of notice in "music".

PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

...
 If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".
...

It's really easy to say something like that ... and not realize what the effects of it are. A list, of any kind, more often than not, has been for 75 years, about what supposedly sells the most, and a suggestion that this is the "thing" to get and to buy.

As a poor/bad example, and I am not criticizing the music, one famous colored balls guy, was not selling anything, and one day created his own top ten ... it became a huge company and stole hundreds of millions from many bands until the company was sold ... and probably still collecting residuals while many artists still have not collected a nickel.

So, whose side are you on? The music and the musicians, or the folks that steal from the musicians and the artists?


Edited by moshkito - February 25 2020 at 08:09
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Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".

You're singing my song.
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Originally posted by Junges Junges wrote:

I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".



Can't fault your reasoning there but some folks (even the most outwardly self opinionated) are covertly insecure and like to have their tastes reinforced by what they believe are accredited sources.
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I have no gripe at all. If one understands that the top 100 are based on ratings and that everyone's list would look completely different... why have a gripe then? I mean you can argue all day about albums that should be there instead of others, but so what? Some people really think the top 100 should be a perfect representation of the best prog albums ever, but at the end of the day it is just a list, like any list. And if you made your own list, everyone would also disagree about this or that album or artist and say "this is so much better than this and bla bla bla".
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I'm not saying that you are all wrong but personally, while I understand that people concentrate their listening of a genre, say jazz, to albums that are recommended as the best, and I even understand that they may also think it's the best not because they have critically built their own opinion but rather because people told them and they now believe they only "understand" the album to the extent that they agree with the majority opinion...

...I still can hardly understand why such people then would bother to rate or even review it. And KOB has truck loads of reviews, the vast majority of them 4 or 5 stars, many by long standing PA collaborators. But OK, may be *I* am lazy because I haven't rated and/or reviewed many albums that I have listened to critically and consciously lots of times, and surely none that I haven't bothered to listen to properly...


Edited by Lewian - February 24 2020 at 10:19
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.





Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbersWink) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself.

I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it.


Did you mean to say: everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums is advised it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time?
What begins as the conventional wisdom of a hundred “best ever jazz” lists soon becomes an article of personal faith...and why bother to explore very much further when you've heard the best there is, and fallen asleep in your favourite armchair to it.

Personally it's not my favourite jazz LP of 1959, let alone of all time.

Edited by Mascodagama - February 24 2020 at 09:13
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Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.





Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbersWink) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself.

I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it.


Did you mean to say: everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums is advised it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time?
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.





Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbersWink) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself.

I wrote on another forum that once KOB was on the PA database it was inevitable that it would feature in the top 100 because everyone who owns less than ten jazz albums knows it’s the greatest jazz recording of all time. Which was a bit trollish, but has an element of truth to it.
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"Never be afraid to think for yourself."

Amen.
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Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.




Perceptive post certainly which identifies the bad faith that has always driven conventional wisdom and every opinion poll since the dawn of time (as far as Prog goes, we could call this the herd instinct of the sacred cow: safety in 'long' numbersWink) The father of propaganda/modern advertising (Josef Goebbels) operated under the premise that if you tell a blatant lie often enough via neuro-enchantment (i.e. from credible officially sanctioned and purportedly informed sources) it will eventually become assimilated into the collective consciousness as the truth. He was clearly an unmitigated c*nt but not entirely wrong. I could have saved many keystrokes by just typing: never be afraid to think for yourself.
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Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Is Beethoven with Minimoog more of a Wakeman with sequin cape or Emerson with cowboy hats and knife-edges?
Hmm. Gotta go with Wakeman with a cape. LOL
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Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ yeah buddy! Clap
Derp They are.  My bad heheheh
Geeze, now I am going to have to find something else to complain about. Cry
Embarrassed Doh! LOL
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Is Beethoven with Minimoog more of a Wakeman with sequin cape or Emerson with cowboy hats and knife-edges?
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Originally posted by thief thief wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Tiny minded people who have a gripe about it.

Have you just called people here tiny minded?

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The music itself came before any "genre" classification, be it soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop, prog, whatever. What does it mean that a genre "exists"? At some point somebody used it as a stamp for a more or less homogeneous set of things and it became popular because there's some use to it. "Classical" a genre? I ask you! Where does it start, where does it stop? All these have their "half in half out" cases. If you look at the borders, you will nowhere find consensus. Obviously, once you have an established genre tag, some people will stay safely within the genre boundaries, there will be jazz clubs and hip hop events and whatnot (even if some of the artists that turn up will be frowned upon by "purists"), so a genre tag, once existing, will tend to confirm itself and create its own culture to the point that people start saying that "this is a gerne that really exists". This has happened with prog, too, by the way.

I agree that prog is an uncomfortable label tag because "prog" comes from "progressive" and the word has something to do with leaving any all too well defined space. I tend to say that what can be all too safely classified as "prog" is certainly not "progressive" - people here agree that these two terms don't mean the same, however it shouldn't be a total coincidence that "prog" is derived from that word...

But there's nothing wrong with embracing a genre tag like this that contains something of a self-contradiction. It actually gives us some flexibility and space to explore surely surprising things within its definitory borders, which as you say correctly can't be nailed down all too precisely. There's some fun to be had in this, some tension that you may find productive, as long as you don't take the whole "is it really prog?" thing too seriously. Surely in this spirit as a "prog fan" I don't envy at all a metal, jazz or hip hop fan who thinks that they can play it safe by staying within their well defined label. The interesting things there are also at the borders, and borders are always floating.

As of Miles Davis Kind of Blue in the Top 100, I agree it's not prog because at that time there's no "prog culture" whatsoever, no social system to which the term could point. Much different with later fusion work. However, I kind of like that it's among the other 99 just as a bone of contention to make people think and discuss. Maybe I'd agree that it doesn't "belong" there, but then I like the idea that we have a "prog top 100" that has some stuff in it that clearly isn't prog, because it demonstrates the difficulty to "formally" draw a line - which one can see as essential for prog(ressive). Rather than drawing the line more precisely, I'm happy to have a demonstration of ambiguity there, to face and embrace the ambiguity.

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.

Maybe we should add Beethoven to Progarchives and see if Moonlight Sonata and Für Elise get 4.70+ average with thosuands of votes... while Waldstein and Missa solemnis remain in relative obscurity Tongue

Count me in for some proggy Beethoven keyboard wizardry. Tongue
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Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Tiny minded people who have a gripe about it.

Have you just called people here tiny minded?

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

The music itself came before any "genre" classification, be it soul,jazz, metal, classical, hip hop, prog, whatever. What does it mean that a genre "exists"? At some point somebody used it as a stamp for a more or less homogeneous set of things and it became popular because there's some use to it. "Classical" a genre? I ask you! Where does it start, where does it stop? All these have their "half in half out" cases. If you look at the borders, you will nowhere find consensus. Obviously, once you have an established genre tag, some people will stay safely within the genre boundaries, there will be jazz clubs and hip hop events and whatnot (even if some of the artists that turn up will be frowned upon by "purists"), so a genre tag, once existing, will tend to confirm itself and create its own culture to the point that people start saying that "this is a gerne that really exists". This has happened with prog, too, by the way.

I agree that prog is an uncomfortable label tag because "prog" comes from "progressive" and the word has something to do with leaving any all too well defined space. I tend to say that what can be all too safely classified as "prog" is certainly not "progressive" - people here agree that these two terms don't mean the same, however it shouldn't be a total coincidence that "prog" is derived from that word...

But there's nothing wrong with embracing a genre tag like this that contains something of a self-contradiction. It actually gives us some flexibility and space to explore surely surprising things within its definitory borders, which as you say correctly can't be nailed down all too precisely. There's some fun to be had in this, some tension that you may find productive, as long as you don't take the whole "is it really prog?" thing too seriously. Surely in this spirit as a "prog fan" I don't envy at all a metal, jazz or hip hop fan who thinks that they can play it safe by staying within their well defined label. The interesting things there are also at the borders, and borders are always floating.

As of Miles Davis Kind of Blue in the Top 100, I agree it's not prog because at that time there's no "prog culture" whatsoever, no social system to which the term could point. Much different with later fusion work. However, I kind of like that it's among the other 99 just as a bone of contention to make people think and discuss. Maybe I'd agree that it doesn't "belong" there, but then I like the idea that we have a "prog top 100" that has some stuff in it that clearly isn't prog, because it demonstrates the difficulty to "formally" draw a line - which one can see as essential for prog(ressive). Rather than drawing the line more precisely, I'm happy to have a demonstration of ambiguity there, to face and embrace the ambiguity.

Very good post, but I'd like to add something. Other poster here mentioned that TOP100 is full of no brainer picks - and how there is good chunk of voters who don't bother to even check out Yes, Camel or King Crimson outside of their respective TOP 5 albums. How these ~5 albums per band are getting more and more recognition, higher and higher average scores, and the rest is covered with dust.

I think that observation is true, but it couldn't be more on point than in case of Miles Davis Kind of Blue. Why does it have 4.34 avg score with 1000+ votes, while Nefertiti, 'Round About Midnight or Sketches of Spain can't break 200 votes? It says our "bone of contention" is a result of a very lazy listening habits and over-reliance on opinions of others. Perhaps it even means that average Progarchives user knows zilch about jazz and just rates Kind of Blue 5 stars to not look dumb or something Wink

1049 and 181 votes. There is NO good reason for that discrepancy.

Maybe we should add Beethoven to Progarchives and see if Moonlight Sonata and Für Elise get 4.70+ average with thosuands of votes... while Waldstein and Missa solemnis remain in relative obscurity Tongue



Edited by thief - February 24 2020 at 00:27
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ yeah buddy! Clap
Derp They are.  My bad heheheh
Geeze, now I am going to have to find something else to complain about. Cry


Edited by Slartibartfast - February 23 2020 at 18:49
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ It's good to see you drop by Todd. Smile

At the risk of flogging a dead pony, I think a lot of the prejudice against some of the sub genres that's found here is due to these members viewing symphonic prog of the early prog groups as setting a standard for what should be considered prog rock, not realizing that progressive rock music by it's very nature can not fit into any type of strict category or description. And even if that was true, symphonic prog like that made by Yes, early KC, etc, is also a sub genre of progressive rock and is not in way, shape or form it's template.
The more the merrier. I definitely wouldn't want to see Jazz-Rock/Fusion artists excluded from ProgArchives on the grounds that they're not "proggy" enough, and the same goes for Hard Rock and Heavy Metal artists too. Smile
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Points: 20604 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2020 at 12:14
^ yeah buddy! Clap
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Points: 29630 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 23 2020 at 12:13
Uh yeah why aren't these guys in it?  Does the top 100 have a bias against JRF?  A bias in favor of Metal?It's not a serious gripe with me as I am liking the top 5 quite well.
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Edited by Slartibartfast - February 23 2020 at 12:14
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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