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Rabid 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
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Points: 512
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 Posted: July 12 2010 at 11:23 |
 rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Dunno......I've never really seen a motif running thru any of Genesis's albums (except 'the Lamb Lies Down').......I've always just regarded it as music. |
There's a motif reinforced in many parts of SEBTP and is first introduced in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, not surprisingly where Gabriel goes "Selling England by the Pound". It is repeated right at the end of Cinema Show, done so subtly that you'd not notice unless you paid complete attention and absorbed the album deeply. They were masters!
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I think anyone would notice that its so obvious......but is that it? That's all? I'm a bit disappointed with that answer.
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I only answered that part of the question and not really what all makes SEBTP prog. It seems he didn't pick it up at least, because he claims there are no motifs in their music save Lamb. Thematic reinforcement is in general a feature of classic prog and is a pervasive element in Genesis's music as well.
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No. I did'nt claim there was no motifs in any of Genesis's albums. I claimed that I've never really noticed any.
What do you mean by 'motif'? In the UK, we generally regard the term 'motif' to mean an underlying theme.
Do you actually mean 'a musical refrain', by any chance? 
Btw....I was absorbing SEBTP deeply on its release day, 1973.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 08:20 |
Chris S wrote:
^ Take Bjork from your listening list. How would you define her music? |
It depends on her album, really. Her debut was particularly steeped in dance music, but Homogenic and Vespertine are much harder for me to categorize. I haven't listened to even half of her total output, myself. Uhm.....well, I see her using electronica, ambient, and dance instrumentation, paired with her voice, to make non-dance, non-ambient, and non-electronica... So, my brain says "post-electronica".
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:50 |
Textbook wrote:
Let's talk about Dragonforce. |
okay.
You start.
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What?
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:41 |
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^ Take Bjork from your listening list. How would you define her music?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:35 |
Textbook wrote:
Let's talk about Dragonforce. |
If Dragonforce are progressive, I need to stop listening to music and go join the peace corps. Naw, that's real mean. Dragonforce just happen to be one of those bands that gets my undying hatred, along with Evanescence, HIM, Children of Bodom, Taylor Swift, and Genesis. (Can you spot the odd one out?)
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 06:53 |
Let's talk about Dragonforce.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 19:59 |
Alitare wrote:
It is funny that out of all those bands you mentioned, I ONLY know of Tori Amos. Even then, I've never taken the time to listen to her music.
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I'd only knew of 6 of them before they were suggested, and 3 of those I had not heard any of their solo output.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 19:43 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Dean wrote:
^ we can only judge him on his solo output for inclusion into Xover. His work with other bands and artists would only count towards Prog Related really. |
The Story of I is surely Prog and Out In The Sun is pretty proggy too.
No Brainer..........  |
Maybe but suppose I have never heard his solo albums? As Dean says, his background is not enough, that way Phil Collins would be a shoo in when his solo work is all pop.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 16:55 |
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Well, lets give up the ghost, fellers. It's clear ol' Stevie isn't getting in. That mud-in-the-stick, Dean, just wants to kill everybody's fun.
Actually, I fully comprehend why he isn't getting in, and in some ways, my feelings agree with yours, Deaner, I mainly enjoy the conversation these types of things usually bring about. His rejection doesn't make him any less of an artist, and that's something we both can comfortably understand.
It is funny that out of all those bands you mentioned, I ONLY know of Tori Amos. Even then, I've never taken the time to listen to her music.
I wonder how controversial it would be to suggest Pat Boone for Tech/Extreme...
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 14:36 |
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Voice of reason here, bringing enlightenment. For all arguing for or against Stevie, just listen to I Ain't Gonna Stand For It. What a great song, and that's a pedal steel there in the mix! And depending on my mood on any given day, any song with pedal steel is progressive, just by definition. I say this because I own one, and it's the most mind-bendingly complex instrument ever foisted upon mankind. Unfortunately, Stevie ain't the one playing that particular instrument.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 13:38 |
Dean wrote:
^ we can only judge him on his solo output for inclusion into Xover. His work with other bands and artists would only count towards Prog Related really. |
The Story of I is surely Prog and Out In The Sun is pretty proggy too.
No Brainer..........
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 12:49 |
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^ we can only judge him on his solo output for inclusion into Xover. His work with other bands and artists would only count towards Prog Related really.
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What?
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chopper
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 12:45 |
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I'll set up 'em up, you knock 'em in Dean.
Anyway, Moraz' time in Yes, Moody Blues etc would be enough to gain a foothold here but I would have thought his solo albums and his work with Bruford would qualify him
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Dean
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 12:24 |
^ dunno, never met the man.
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chopper
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 11:46 |
Dean wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
But I guess that wouldn't happen with non controversial artists.  |
Dunno, let's give it a try.
Abarax, The Advancement, Amish, Tori Amos, Ananta, Antares, Tony Arnold, Arthur Ellis 2000, Autumn People, Boo, Tara Busch, Dave Cadman, Cap Outrun, Stewart Copeland, Distant Lights, Mark DuBerry, Sergey Dudin, Electric Sorcery, Aaron English, Fang Island, Floater, Freeway, Gio Gentile, Jason Havelock, Islands, Kiss Kiss, Guy LeBlanc, Ludus, Mar Aun, Marbin, Masters of the Airwaves, Mirror People, Vladimir Misik, Moonlight Sky, Patrick Moraz, Mytho, Sally Oldfield, Stefano Panunzi, Pedra, Michael Quatro, Jan Schelhaas, Sinthome, Sunday, Supernal Endgame, Minus the Bear, Thumpermonkey Lives!, The Tunesmith's Apprentice, Ted Turner and Whalefeathers.
One of those are controversial, so let's ignore her and move on to the other 49 - not all are complete unknowns, so I'm not being completely unreasonable 
Opinions please, do each of these artists qualify for addition to Crossover Prog? Are each of them more or less Proggy than >>insert progband of your choice here<<?
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I would have thought Moraz was a no-brainer.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 11:01 |
rogerthat wrote:
Other than Tori Amos, I am not familiar with any of these to the level to be able to comment on whether they should be here and whether in that case they should be in XOver. I guess collabs would have to often judge on samples (correct me if I am wrong) but I wouldn't want to do that personally. Based on the two albums of Tori that I have heard and love, Little Earthquakes and Under the Pink, not XOver. |
None of us are familiar with all artists, and seldom as familar with those suggested to us as the person suggesting them is. Of course we evalate on samples, but if the samples are inconclusive we will hold off until more representative samples can be obtained. I have even gone as far as buying whole albums from eBay and Amazon of music I did not particularily like because I was uncertain based on the samples and needed to hear more. MySpace is probably the worse for judging Progressive artists because the tracks are often chosen to be the catchiest of a band's output (and no band is ever going to be added to a Progressive Rock site on the strength of a hit single ).
/edit: I did say that one artist is controversial and to ignore her 
Edited by Dean - July 11 2010 at 11:04
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:49 |
Other than Tori Amos, I am not familiar with any of these to the level to be able to comment on whether they should be here and whether in that case they should be in XOver. I guess collabs would have to often judge on samples (correct me if I am wrong) but I wouldn't want to do that personally. Based on the two albums of Tori that I have heard and love, Little Earthquakes and Under the Pink, not XOver.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:42 |
rogerthat wrote:
But I guess that wouldn't happen with non controversial artists. |
Dunno, let's give it a try.
Abarax, The Advancement, Amish, Tori Amos, Ananta, Antares, Tony Arnold, Arthur Ellis 2000, Autumn People, Boo, Tara Busch, Dave Cadman, Cap Outrun, Stewart Copeland, Distant Lights, Mark DuBerry, Sergey Dudin, Electric Sorcery, Aaron English, Fang Island, Floater, Freeway, Gio Gentile, Jason Havelock, Islands, Kiss Kiss, Guy LeBlanc, Ludus, Mar Aun, Marbin, Masters of the Airwaves, Mirror People, Vladimir Misik, Moonlight Sky, Patrick Moraz, Mytho, Sally Oldfield, Stefano Panunzi, Pedra, Michael Quatro, Jan Schelhaas, Sinthome, Sunday, Supernal Endgame, Minus the Bear, Thumpermonkey Lives!, The Tunesmith's Apprentice, Ted Turner and Whalefeathers.
One of those are controversial, so let's ignore her and move on to the other 49 - not all are complete unknowns, so I'm not being completely unreasonable
Opinions please, do each of these artists qualify for addition to Crossover Prog? Are each of them more or less Proggy than >>insert progband of your choice here<<?
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:36 |
Dean wrote:
Probably because they are both umbrella terms that encompass a wide range of musical styles. The equivalent to Jazz and Classical is not Prog, but simply Popular Music. Therefore it is just as easy to classify Stevie Wonder, Genesis and Steely Dan as Popular Music as it is to classify Beethoven as Classical (if we assume that by Classical you mean Western classical music that emcompasses everything from Medieval through to Contemporary). The real question is whether Beethoven is Classical Era or Romantic Era, and within those still broad classification which school of Romantic and which period of his development (Bonn, Vienna etc). |
That explains it, thank you.
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Dean
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Posted: July 11 2010 at 10:35 |
Probably because they are both umbrella terms that encompass a wide range of musical styles. The equivalent to Jazz and Classical is not Prog, but simply Popular Music. Therefore it is just as easy to classify Stevie Wonder, Genesis and Steely Dan as Popular Music as it is to classify Beethoven as Classical (if we assume that by Classical you mean Western classical music that emcompasses everything from Medieval through to Contemporary). The real question is whether Beethoven is Classical Era or Romantic Era, and within those still broad classification which school of Romantic and which period of his development (Bonn, Vienna etc).
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