Cem Karaca (Turkish progressive master)

Don't worry Bilek, this is a new Iván who doesn't want to boil his blood for anything.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2009 at 18:03

Great discussion! This is what PA is about. And a belated thanks, Ivan, for the response before. :)

It is not discussion itself what I'm afraid of; rather, it is the possibility of things getting ugly, which even you and I had been involved some time ago (Santana, anyone ?) Well, aside from that, you may well be aware that I say all my words to you (and to a couple of senior & respected collabs here) within "with all my respect to you and your expertise on the subject" parenthesis (and I guess you already are )

One last remark about Anatolian: Neither Cem Karaca's, nor any other notable Anatolian rock artist's language could be considered "ancient" in any of their songs; though sometimes obsolete words pop up, these are usually known by anyone with a high school education, and even the grammar of such prose & poetry is actually the basis of modern Turkish (hence, the same linguists who call the old form of Turkish "Anatolian Turkish" usually underline the fact that this is the logical parent language of modern "Turkey" Turkish, just like Middle English is today's English's parent -as opposed to Ottoman, which was an artifical language constructed by elements from Turkish, Arabic & Persian, and never became anything more than a "court language")
You can just call all kinds of languages spoken by Turkish people as "Turkish" . That's the easy solution, regardless of the period & style
Besides, the song in question (Raptiye Rap Rap) has nothing whatsoever to do with folk, ancient culture etc. Just a satire on both rap music itself and the then-current social & cultural situation of Turkey! (Again, let me remind that this track has little to with prog, as well as its parent album! My claims on Cem KAraca's music being prog rests entirely upon different grounds)

The important part I want to emphasise with this message is here:
Your three points to regard Cem Karaca merely as prog related need to be revised:
1- I don't know what exactly you heard from him, and what percentage of his discography these constitute, but as a general guideline, let me just spread out his entire prog & related output. One needs to hear all, at least most of these to appreciate CK as a prog musician:
 - His entire output with Kardaslar band (6 singles, plus a couple of outtakes, subsequently released in compilation albums, mostly available in greatest hits CD's at the moment)
 - His entire output with Mogollar band (3 singles, plus that much of outtakes, subsequently released in compilation albums, mostly available in greatest hits CD's at the moment)
 - His entire output with Dervisan, the "real" progressive rock band (6 singles, a couple of outtakes released in compilations, but most of all, "Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz" album, specifically "Sevdan Beni" track!
 - His only album with Edirdahan band, and Turkish progressive masterwork, "Safinaz"
 - His 3 albums released in Germany,  "Hasret", "Bekle Beni" and "Die Kanaken". Admittedly, these have less prog content than the former albums, mostly due to technical limitations Cem Karaca had because of his exile status in Germany, and partly due to changing times & situations (it was early '80's, mind you!).
I agree with the fact that good music doesn't always mean prog, that's why I left out his entire output with his first recording band Apaslar, and Ferdy Klein orchester made in late '60's & 1970. Also, there are some (albeit very few) songs even in Kardaslar, Mogollar and Dervisan periods, despite being great music, not to be considered as prog (such as "Tamirci Ciragi", being one of his landmark tunes) but I believe prog content in these eras easily overshadow such tracks (just as the prog songs in SEbtP easily overshadow "I Know What I Like" and "More Fool Me" )

2- Again, I don't know what exactly you read about him, but please let me remind you once again: all opinions are subjective, and people usually reflect their ideas based on their backgrounds, appetites etc. That is, a proghead who gets acquainted with Cem Karaca would (and should) immediately recognise the progressive aspects in his music, whereas people who don't care much about prog will tend to overlook them, and not even have a clue. A jazz lover, for instance, may recognize a little bit of jazzy sound in Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz, or, a classic music listener may (or may not) appreciate the orchestration in his tracks with Werner Müller orchester, and both will fail to associate his music to "prog" (unless, of course,  these people also have a prog background). To this effect, even a punk listener may find something to his liking, just like that some punks appreciate the punk sound in The Who's music, whereas we progheads are interested only in the prog content (which eventually gave us a chance to have them added in proto-prog here )
Another factor which makes him get overlooked is that most Turkish musicians are not very well known outside of Turkey. Luckily, there's a growing interest here and there, and because of this revived interest, I believe we will have a better chance to promote these extraordinary artists in a short time! (and adding them to progarchives database is a primary instrument to accomplish that mission )

3- That no prog site mentions him is also due to the factors I explained above. People don't mention him, simply because they don't know him!!!


I agree with your last statement (in bold) from the opposite side : I honestly believe he should be included in a full blown prog subgenre (possible in Folk, maybe crossover or eclectic, certainly not symphonic or anything else; too bad he has little psychedelic content, otherwise I'd do my best to get him into psych anyway ) but even if he's not added (or added to related) I won't feel bad, either!

Before having to see you two involved in a fierce discussion (which will most probably arise from misunderstanding, since Dervisan admittedly has limited English knowledge, much less about the way things here in progarchives work ), let me add my two cents:

Ivan, while wikipedia infos are usually "true", that doesn't mean they include "everything", so, even if Cem Karaca made absolute prog music in the times which somehow remain outside the scope of a certain article (in this case, main Cem Karaca entry), they unfortunately remain overlooked... This is the case with at least two of the bands mentioned in the article, Karaca made totally "prog" with both Kardaslar and Mogollar (Mogollar themselves being a prominent prog-folk band), but as the musical style featured during this time had been somewhat non-mainstream, many people who undertake to write such biographies don't bother to make a mention of "prog"... or, simply because they are uninterested... the reason "Dervishan" period is mostly referred to as prog may be that synthesisers had been so prominently used, and Karaca's music somehat deviated from the "previously unheard type of Turkish prog-rock fusion", which actually dominated most of the newly-evolving Turkish rock scene, and subsequently dubbed as Anatolian Rock, or Anatolian Pop...
While I may agree with you that there are a considerable number of Cem Karaca records, which clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with prog, this doesn't diminish the "prog" value of the other records, which, I belive, constitute the majority. For that reason, and from another viewpoint than that of Dervisan's (forum member . not to be confused with Cem Karaca's superb "progressive rock" backing band ) I assert that Cem Karaca should be added into a full-blown prog genre (certainly not symphonic anyway). There are artists which made only one prog album in their decades-worthy careers, and yet, beause of the influence of that particular album, being featured in a prog subgenre here... This should be the case with Cem Karaca; he should be evaluated on the grounds of Resimdeki Gözyaslari (1968), Namus Belasi (1974), Dadaloglu (1970), Parka (1975) singles, and Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz (1977) and Safinaz (1978) albums; not on Töre (1988), Yiyin Efendiler (1990) or Nerde Kalmistik (1992) albums, the latter of which (I believe, because I don't have access to youtube) includes the  so-called Rap track you mentioned... I'm coming to that in a moment .

Just a quick sidenote on Charles Aznavour type French chansons: As you may well have noticed, Cem Karaca had been recoding since 1967, a year barely marking the beginnings of proto-prog, much less a time for expecting something really "prog" outside of mainland Europe or U.S. ... Even then, Karaca's some songs included some experiments with Anatolian sounds and classic rock; enough to be called "progressive" for its time. Anyway, his "Aznavour meets Cat Stevens" type of songs (again, I didn't have a chance to look at youtube samples, yet, I know exactly what you're talking about ) come from a transitional period between his first recoding band "Apaslar" and second one "Kardaslar". According to the limited info I have, he had been stuck in Germany for some time during 1970 (I learned this from himself, full story is irrelevant to the subject, about his "Baba" song, and I'll tell off-topic if anyone is interested ), and probably didn't have access to his newly-formed band Kardaslar at the time, so he made use of Ferdy Klein - Werner Müller orchestra, which also gave him a helping hand in several of his singles with Apaslar band, and recorded those chanson-like songs. Another involving factor is the tendency to imitate what is popular outside of Turkey; apparently that style was popular, at least for Cem Karaca himself anyway, so he made use of it for some period. Admittedly non-prog, but most of the songs from this period are indeed amazing to me.

About rap: although Dervisan the forum member explained that a little bit, let me further comment: First, there's no such language as "Anatolian" (though some linguists refer to a certain stage of Turkish language as "Anatolian Turkish"), just like there's no language as Iberian, South American, or Amazonian . After my insolent joke, let me mention that along with Cem Karaca's attempt to make fun of wanna-be rappers, Rap has another (and more ancient) meaning in Turkish, reflectional sound of a soldier's boot. So, the phrase "rap rap" usually suggests a marching band of soldiers, which in turn brings to mind the excessive number of coup d'états Turkey suffered every ten years from 1960 to 1980 (and there was one more to come in post-modern format before the '90's were over ). The latest one of those made Cem Karaca himself suffer more than most people in Turkey, he virtually lost his family, his established life, and even his reputation to an extent.
In the bottom line, the song is intended both to make sarcasm of rap music, and to subtly refer to the effects of military powers to the state and society. It has more social and political meanings, but this is not the place to tell them all  .
Admittedly a non-prog song, just like most of the album (Nerde Kalmistik - 1992) anyway! Yet, I have already made a petition not to evaluate CK on the basis of such albums . I beseech thee, to be fair to this extraordinary artist, and evaluate the bulk of his prog stuff so as to warrant him a "deserved" place in progarchives, my ultimate source for progressive music (I'm not just referring to you personally, Ivan. My petition includes everyone, notably members of relevant genre teams, involved in this process...)


P.S. late '80's and '90's (notably early nineties) were deserted times for prog music in general (although certainly not for extreme subgenres such as RIO-Zeuhl-Avant prog), so my request to totally ignore the output recorded-released during these times should be legitimate... This also goes for other Turkish artists, for whom both I and Dervisan-the-forum-member will apply in time
Another interesting aspect in this timeframe is that Turkish music usually follows Europe some 5 years back (with the notable exception of Erkin Koray's first single: released around the same time and exactly the same style with Beatles' first album, thus, practically co-inventing beat style rock along with them ), so, when it was psychedelic era in Europe and US, we had been dealing with early pop songs, with some "beat" thrown in; when prog arose in Europe, we upgraded to psychedelia (Erkin Koray's best psychedelic songs are from 1971-74 period!); and when prog began to fall out of favor, we made prog music (most prominent Turkish prog albums are from late '70's). Lucky for us, because when there was sh*t all over the place in the early '80's, we still had decent proggy pop-rock albums! (this "pop" is in the "popular" sense; not as in "synth-pop") Unfortunately, the late '90's - early 2000's prog revival never fully effected Turkey, apart from a handful of exceptions (such as Nekropsi & Replikas)

ivan ; i dont know i can understand your writings true or false but i can understand like that ; "cem karaca is not a progressive artist, only he was related with it" .. if you said it for others (not cem karaca(prog), not barış manço(prog), not erkin koray(psche) ) i can say that "yes it s true" but i cant agree with you about cem karaca (or the other 2 master)  if you said edip akbayram (who is a famous singer of turkey) was related with progressive in his some work, i can say you "yes it is absolutely true" i dont know which works did you listen or research about cem karaca but he absolutely made progressive, not related with it.. also barış manço too ... yes they absent from this some albums but it was not about their fault, it was about conditions of turkish political life... they have lived a terrible army coup in 1980 which was stoped music art  or other artistic value.. please take on board this  

on the other hand , if you want to categorize please researc general... you absolutely know more from me but you cant categorize him only semphonic prog(because of safinaz) or early semphonic prog (becuase of Cem Karaca-Apaşlar / Freddy Klein) or prog folk (Cem Karaca/Kardaşlar or Cem Karaca/Moğollar) or only prog (Cem Karaca/Dervisan)  ... if you want to categorize him please look at him works  general... if you say that "he is not a prog artist, he was only related with it sometimes" it will be absolutely grievance... 

and you said "he has done rap" no he didnt.. he has kidded with the president of a republic and the  young and silly rappers in that song that you have listened ; "rap rap" (but i think he could do it better that silly rappers because there was terrible disguisting(with really silly lyrics)  rap flood in this time)

thank you




Edited by Dervisan - February 06 2009 at 18:02

but it hasnt finisht yet... there is 2 albums more to tell about what is more important in his life.. ; "Nerede Kalmıştık" and "Bindik Bir Elamete"

but they are not more important for prog rock.. buy a rock lover want to know them i think... espaccially with "Nerede Kalmıştık", rock was reborned in Turkey after stratocracy (dictatour military management)

ok analyze them and this time i will tell them...

and Cem Karaca can be 1th place in every list.. he can do it after his death too..  may God have mercy on this big  musician (it will be his die  anniversary 3 days later.. give him a present..give him a little respect)

Edited by Dervisan - February 05 2009 at 05:00

Sorry, admins. It seems my questions are out of place in Cem Karaca Suggestion thread.

Dervisan, l moved my latest questions to your thread "what do you know about turkish progressive http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55223&KW=&PID=3130935#3130935, where we can talk of Baris Manco and other artists from your country.

Let's give collaborators the time to analyze your information of Cem Karaca.

Edited by NotAProghead - February 07 2009 at 19:47

1. "Acıh da Bağa Vir" (3:45) 
2. "Kayaların Oğlu" (3:06) 
3. "2023" (6:54)
4. "Yol Verin Ağalar Beyler" (4:03) 
5. "Uzun İnce Bir Yoldayım" (5:11)
6. "Yine Yol Göründü Gurbete" (3:22)
7. "Baykoca Destanı: Gülme Ha Gülme" (3:10)
8. "Baykoca Destanı: Gelinlik Kızların Dansı" (1:47)
9. "Baykoca Destanı: Kara Haber: Turnanın Ölümü" (1:14)
10. "Baykoca Destanı: Vur Ha Vur" (2:42) 
11. "Baykoca Destanı: Durma Ha Durma" (3:19) 
12. "Tavuklara Kışşşt De!" (2:14)
13. "Kol Bastı" (6:48)

  so it s true...where is 23 i dont know ok whatever ...

  i think you ask me the albums that were sold in market...Bilek have told you well, so only i can give a summary  ok; at first you have to get masterworks;

Cem Karaca ; Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz LP
                                      Parka/İhtarname 45rpm
                                      Mor Perşembe/Bir Mirasyediye ağıt 45 rpm
                                      Safinaz LP or CD

*you are lucky because of Cem Karaca..you are talking with really big fan of him... "yoksulluk kader olamaz" have got a new CD but why i cant understand the have cut "sevdan beni" at its half   i really hate this..and you can get Cem Karaca best of 1-2-3-4-5 and "Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz"  .. Safinaz have got CD verison already... i can give the real 11 minutes "sevdan beni", if this stupids didnt cut them i can say you go and buy an album but now i can give you original song.. stupids...they have cut from half the most beautiful song of album cem karaca/Dervisan's have got 3 concert record.. fitaş, londra and ankara ... fitaş concert is really a secret nobody knows it but unless me...i havent got these records but i have listen them 1 time only... Londra concert is really wonderful i prefer this but you can get this rapidshare or from me.. this recor havent got any  album .. Ankara concert is good one too... there is no album about it.. you can get it rapid or from me...

and there is an CD from kalan music (oldies) : Cemaz-ul Evvel


Barış Manço;Yeni Bir Gün
                                 2023
                      
*the 2023 is in cd and sold but it s not original song .. it s strange that they have change some songs from original..and this cd have a disguisting photoshop album picture..why did they do this i dont know but it s really terrible... if you can listen LPs or 45 rpm s get a real 2023 album , it s better    you can listen all song from "Yeni bir gün" from "sarı çizmeli mehmet aga" CD (Yavuz Plak) stupid yavuz plak


 .... and the other is "Ben Bilirim" CD from stupid Yavuz Plak



... (it s strage that Cem Karaca's song has cutted by them too)... absolutely he has got concert records but with album yes you can get "live in japan" but i dont like this album so much..i prefer to listen my "2023" LP .... tomorrow i will say you his concert records... if he has, it s like cem karaca's concert records... you cant find everywhere...

Erkin Koray ; Elektronik Türküler LP  (it s strange that Sweden make this albums LP in 1995, not CD) Electric Turk - LP Xotic Mind Records
 
                        you can find all old songs in "dünden esintiler 1-2-3-4-5" and in "dünden esintiler 3" you can find the song in electronik türküler LP...  (Kalite MC)

                        if you can find "Erkin Koray Vol.1" ,"Erkin Koray Vol.2"  are wonderful CD s... it s really hard to find them because the publisher of these cd's were bankrupted (istanbul plakçılık) they really have done good CD,  i am really sad because or their bankrupt


Edip Akbayram ; i love to listen his mp3 s but i havent got a lot of info about it.. i have to talk with my friend who is his fan but "Nedir Ne Değildir" is really good album... so your first aim is that

 
                       
                        


Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 19:45

Let me handle that for you:

1. apart from the obvious choice 2023, you definitely should get "Yeni Bir Gün", and good luck with that! It didn't make (appropriately) onto CD, only in a compilation-like format; a commercial CD was made available some 15 years ago, including most of Yeni Bir Gün (bar 2 instrumental tracks,one being very short and last part of the multi-part namesake suite), about half of 2023 (intersting, eh ) and one track from an experimental English language self-titled album Baris made in between the two, in order to take his chance abroad (and ultimately fail ). The Turkish vinyl pressing of that album was named after the song included in this CD: Nick the Chopper... The CD was named after the A-1 track of the original Yeni Bir Gün album, "Sari Cizmeli Mehmet Aga" (and a popular hit at that). Luckily, I have the original album on vinyl, and all I could find on digital format was a 192 kbps rip, which circulated in blogspot for some time... (maybe it's still in circulation . I suggest anyone to leave aside legality concerns and go for it! The commercial CD edition has annoying cracks & rustles here and there, apart from not including the entire album itself!)

2. Live in Japan would be an unfortunate choice. Almost nothing from his glorious '70's days is included (apart from the cheesy & popular Daglar Daglar... more info possibly underway with Dervisan's new thread ) and the band is far from representative of their glory period (though the long-time bassist & guitarist are still there...)
More unfortunately, this is the only commercial live release from Baris Manco so far... In that case, I'll suggest to go with bootlegs, the only one I know of which is Live in Tarsus (The same Tarsus, homeland of St. Paul of Bible fame: Acts 9:11), again, found in the blogosphere . I hope Dervisan may have the resources to help you in that matter! (As far as the Tarsus concert goes, it is fair enough. Quite representative of the glory days, i.e. including some big ones from 2023, and fair sound quality, despite apparently being audience tape)

3. I am a big prog fan (specifically Kraut, Psych-Prog, original Zeuhl, vintage Prog-Electronic, King Crimson & VdGG) myself, and I hope my personal faves mean something for that matter :
Cem Karaca: Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz (1977 - vinyl version. The CD issue is suffering similar problems as Mancho's abovementioned album), Safinaz (1978 - luckily, we have a decent CD presing of this one!!!) Nem Kaldi & Parka (compilations, 1975 & '76 - good luck with finding both!!!)
Edip Akbayram: Nedir Ne Degildir (1977) (despite having the same "inconsistency" problem in CD edition, this one includes some very good singles and worth having anyway!) I like some of his later albums as well, but probably because of nostalgic affections, rather than progressive qualities!
Erkin Koray: apart from the obvious Elektronik Türküler (Electronic Folk Ballads - 1975 - it has got almost nothing to do with its name!) and Erkin Koray Tutkusu (Erkin Koray Passion - 1977), there are several self titled albums floating around, and despite having the same backbone as tracklisting (a compilation of singles from his freaked-out psychedelic era), most differ in bonus tracks, and one should certainly beware of Erkin Koray 2 album for start... So, it would be best to check out tracks before buying-ordering a self-titled Erkin Koray release.. I may give a list of masterpiece tracks (in fact, all tracks with my personal rating order ) if requested. Actually I am supposed to prepare an Erkin Koray bio, since forever, and when it's ready, it'll most likely include "prog essential" tracks, but I'll offer any off list requests before it will be ready... eventually!

Dervisan, Baykoca Destani is not 23 minutes (I wish!), but just over 10. Still a killer track, though! (actually you can have the feeling that it goes on some twenty minutes, because it is so full )

it will be finish soon ... there is a lot of master that i have to tell... so i have to finish it at first dean... Barış Manço's biyography is waiting... and Bunalımlar and Edip Akbayram-Dostlar and Ersen-Dadaşlar and Moğollar and Murat Ses and Çığrışım and Hardal and .................................................a long list...

I dont say "Erkin Koray" becuase bilek will write it for your site that i heard...


However this,  i have to prepare a coffee to myself ... break time ...



Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 14:30