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Are Certain Genres Not "Music"?
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dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
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There he goes putting words in my mouth again. Only one person in this thread called anybody racist, and it's the guy you're defending Confused  i've said all these words in my comments, gone deep into what i'm arguing against and you're still stuck on the word "white." Of everything i've said over the several pages here, that really should not be your main takeaway.

Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 03:50
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....


No, you don't know what you mean because he said he is not white and you would rather pretend he is lying than accept you are wrong. That speaks volumes about YOU and how ideological you are about something as mundane as bashing music.
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Ok, I’m just convinced at this point you’re going out of your way to misunderstand me, move the goalposts and put words in my mouth that just are not there. I’m not going walk back what I said because I know what I mean, you evidently don’t, you’re reading way to deep into something that just isn’t there. Why are the words liberal and conservative even coming up? It kinda tells me what angle you’re actually coming from and why the mere mention of the word “white” has you breaking down and hyper analyzing every word I say, and every word I don’t say....

Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 14 2021 at 01:03
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I'm going to be honest AF: the fact that this thread exists, and the very idea has been entertained either directly or indirectly, is further proof this forum is probably done.

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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Hip Hop and Rap erm ...'spoken word music' is for the Prog community. As soon as someone plays the race card there is no coming back to any semblance of decorum. Dead I'm sure none of us would deny the musicality and improvisational ability of the beat poets reciting their verse against be bop Jazz in the 50's and 60's e.g Jack Kerouac (with Al Cohn and Zoot Sims) Kenneth Patchen (with the Chamber Jazz Sextet) and Gil Scott Heron's early albums in the 70's etc. Their modern equivalents and influence can be found in the likes of: A Tribe called Quest, Digable Planets, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers et al. Seeing as how the PA crew are ripe suckers for complexity and 'odd time signatures' y'all, this is an example of truly progressive spoken word music that has very few peers even in the Prog realm:

Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on)




I am not even that much into poetry but I love Tribe Called Quest for exactly the combination of jazz with awesome syncopated grooves. 
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Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across Ermm.

You're having trouble because you don't want to hold yourself to account for your words while you build up a gigantic stereotype out of someone simply saying hip hop is not music.  Now if you want to be so obdurate about it, so can I be so here we go...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

I
If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again.

I hope you know what 99% means.  Because you used that word in your post.
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

f you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin.

I will add that this is an amendment to your earlier more ambitious proposition which was...
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

If you don't believe Hip Hop is music, and you say that as a big one size fits all statement, you are old, probably white, a embodiment of a certain stereotype (a certain 6 letter b word that last I heard was banned on this site, go figure)

So you assume the race, age and character of a person all out of one thing and you expect us to rush to your defence for it?  Exactly who's dying on what hill here?  Yes, it's rude and unpleasant to say a particular genre is not music but that does not entitle you to stereotype that person, worse still to slot them into a particular racial demographic and refuse to believe them when they tell you they aren't white or old.

No, the problem is you overstepped the line in your attempt to defend prog.  And then, having stereotyped MortSahlFan you complain about him personally attacking you.  What, did you expect him to just roll over and say yessir?

So...

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:


 I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.

That's their choice and it doesn't entitle you to personally attack them.  Please, white people speaking respectfully about hip hop is not going to make black people's problems go away.  So stop making such a big deal out of it where you assume that somebody saying hip hop is not music is an old white (possibly racist) bas****.  Yeah, you didn't flat out call him a racist but that's where you were going.  If dog whistles are poor form for conservatives, they should be for liberals too.  You don't get a special licence to indulge in dog whistles because you are saving the world from evil.


Edited by rogerthat - March 13 2021 at 19:03
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I think hitting cement mixers with sticks is music but calling something music isn't some kind of merit badge. There is no value claim inherent in that. It's surely not a masterpiece to go 1 2 3 4 on a cement mixer. And I think the important thing is whether there is something of value there. Whether there's value I think is at least partly subjective, though of course some kinds of music are going to be more successful at producing positive value for the largest number of listeners than other kinds. I will add to that, though, that there are people on the fringes of the bell curve for whom the most valuable music just might be what most people think is garbage. And I think that's okay.
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

And where would music in general (and prog in particular) be without innovators and experimentation?

Hi,

Regardless of what kind of music, this is where it gets in trouble, for a definition. For example ... on one of the BBC specials on "krautrock", one of the members of FAUST, sets out to show "music" and he takes some sticks and goes to hit a couple of cement mixers!

The "raw content", on its own, I do not think it "fits" as a description of "music" ... but when combined with something else, and likely having a bunch of knobs change it some, then it becomes something that we consider "music".

Rap, for me is not the issue ... the only thing that is sad is the consideration that the drum machine sound, ON ITS OWN is considered an instrument, which then combined with the voice makes it "music" ... and I think this is something that likely should not be considered "music" ... but then, commercial interests love to feed the public "stuff" that makes money, and it is pretty obvious that rap/hip-hop makes a pretty good amount of money ... and at least, we're not seeing those folks complain about that their sales have dropped so much .... etc, etc, etc ... if anything they stand to gain even more if the "record company" is out of the way!

I think that experimental "music" is too new for a proper definition and discussion ... I think that in another 20 to 30 years, things will likely change as the "new-ness" that rap and hip-hop offer will have fallen off some, and then something else comes along ... and all those people calling themselves "composers" and all they do is set a drum machine ... will probably not be appreciated so readily as they are now! Somewhere along the way, the words are not enough to carry you, and the "music" under it is not sustainable except on repeat!
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I'm having trouble trying to find more and more different ways to say the point i'm trying to get across Ermm. It's not about saying "I don't like hip hop," that's perfectly fine, not once throughout this thread have I trashed someone for simply not liking the style of music. It's when people say "hip hop is not music," that I start getting up in arms because it's not longer a matter of opinion, it's just incorrect and ignorant at that point. Like I said, I don't how many other ways I can convey this thought.

If your take away from my last comment was "Doug thinks only white boomers and teenagers don't like hip hop," you might want to read it again. I'm saying those two parties more than any other tend to sh*t out those sentiments. I'm saying to these people, don't back yourself into a corner and an unpleasant stereotype. Rather, be the cool old dude with the tie dye shirt who has a broad respect for art.


Edited by dougmcauliffe - March 13 2021 at 09:38
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Say it loud: I'm an unrepentant old white boomer and loving a huge variety of music from all cultures across the globe. (I'm NOT a conservative but I don't think Ben Shapiro is even remotely a dick for being clueless about music) It always seems rather predictable that these types of threads invariably degenerate into how polarising Hip Hop and Rap erm ...'spoken word music' is for the Prog community. As soon as someone plays the race card there is no coming back to any semblance of decorum. Dead I'm sure none of us would deny the musicality and improvisational ability of the beat poets reciting their verse against be bop Jazz in the 50's and 60's e.g Jack Kerouac (with Al Cohn and Zoot Sims) Kenneth Patchen (with the Chamber Jazz Sextet) and Gil Scott Heron's early albums in the 70's etc. Their modern equivalents and influence can be found in the likes of: A Tribe called Quest, Digable Planets, De La Soul and the Jungle Brothers et al. Seeing as how the PA crew are ripe suckers for complexity and 'odd time signatures' y'all, this is an example of truly progressive spoken word music that has very few peers even in the Prog realm:

Story 2 by Clipping broken down by Yogev Gabay (his You Tube channel has numerous other examples of metric and rhythmic innovation from Metal, Rock, Prog, Hip Hop, Rap, Pop, Funk, Soul (the list goes on)









Edited by ExittheLemming - March 13 2021 at 09:52
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ erm, you mean don't exist right?


Sorry. Yes indeed. Will make the correction.
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^ erm, you mean don't exist right?
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I don't get why people get personal about other people because they have a different taste. It's fair enough to discuss whether it has to do with race that some people dismiss hip hop, but everybody has a right to dislike it and say it, and if you're going to stereotype people based on that, there's gotta be reactions. 
Thank you. I have said this once, twice, thrice to Doug and he doesn't get it. So I give up. No, there are vastly more people than just white boomers and teenage kids who diss hip hop. If Doug hasn't met them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Edited by rogerthat - March 13 2021 at 08:58
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Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Many misconstrue the term RAP (which is a lyrical delivery style, not the genre itself) with HIP HOP which is based on funk and has grown to incorporate different styles of music around it. Whether anybody likes those songs i shared is NOT THE POINT. The point WAS and REMAINS that they cannot deny that those samples are indeed MUSIC.

This is something that is probably the most misunderstood about hip hop. Hip hop doesn't actually require rap at all to be hip hop. And two of the "four corners" of hip are not necessarily musical. Hip hop is generally acknowledged to include MC'ing (rapping), DJ'ing, Breaking (breakdancing), and Graf (graffiti art). It is possible to emcee without music (though the rapping itself might still be considered musical). It is possible to break without music. It is possible to graf without music. So, in a way, it would be possible to argue that hip hop is not music - or, at least, not entirely so. But it kind of misses the point.

Hip hop music, is definitely music. It might not be a music you understand and/or enjoy, but that's about it.

You hardly ever see it these days, but I remember when rap first started to really hit the charts, a lot of the artists still tended to preface their names with what they did (so MC this, and DJ that). That trend seems to have died away somewhat, as people have become more aware of hip hop culture.

It is easy to dismiss that which you don't enjoy. I don't have a problem with anyone dismissing hip hop. I don't like when people make it personal. I don't like everything that my friends and family listen to, and they don't like everything I listen to. But it's never a bone of contention, because we respect each other. It sometimes that seems the relative anonymity the internet affords us, tends to make some people respect others less.

By all means, let's discuss whether something is or isn't music - or even, what is music, because if we can't even agree with what music is, we can never really agree about what is or isn't music.

By all means, let's discuss whether not liking something can have a basis in racism, but let's never assume that is always the case.

The golden rule in my family growing up, and the one I have in my house now I have children of my own, is that if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. That doesn't mean we can't have discussion or debate, and it doesn't mean we can't cover controversial topics - but we can be civil, polite and respectful.
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^ true that i should've worded it better when i posted that Wink

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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.


Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.


You seem to be conflating your opinions with facts. With arrogance like that you really should be levitating in front of us LOL


Not at all. The consensus of MANY is that hip hop is NOT MUSIC including on this thread. I'm merely demonstrating that there is a lot of hip hop that is clearly music based on the dictionary definition of music. Many misconstrue the term RAP (which is a lyrical delivery style, not the genre itself) with HIP HOP which is based on funk and has grown to incorporate different styles of music around it. Whether anybody likes those songs i shared is NOT THE POINT. The point WAS and REMAINS that they cannot deny that those samples are indeed MUSIC.

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I don't get why people get personal about other people because they have a different taste. It's fair enough to discuss whether it has to do with race that some people dismiss hip hop, but everybody has a right to dislike it and say it, and if you're going to stereotype people based on that, there's gotta be reactions. 
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Yeah rogerthat you’re misinterpreting my comment and Nick pretty much has it right with the Ben Shapiro stereotype comparison. Calling someone racist for not liking hip hop is sh*tty, and that was not my goal. What I’m saying is that when you start using the same arguments that Ben Shapiro uses, someone who very likely does argue from a very disingenuous place, people might assume that of you. If you’re referring to me particularly saying “old and white,” that might not be a particularly comfortable way to say it, but 99% of the people I’ve ever heard who flat out say hip hop just straight up isn’t music, fit into two categories: the out of touch classic rock radio crowd who really don’t have any sort of grasp on the genre or musicality behind it, or 13 year olds who just discovered Led Zeppelin. But the main idea here is that arguing that hip hop isn’t music is a cartoonishly dated belief and I said it in an earlier comment, I would be so happy and satisfied just to hear some sort of in between of something along the lines of “I’ve never liked the genre, but I’m willing to go in with an open mind and try out a few songs. If it’s not for me that’s okay but I understand the appeal.” I’d be totally cool with that, no questions asked, but instead people would rather die on a hill that leaves a sour taste in everyone’s mouth.
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Originally posted by Progishness Progishness wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Anybody who says that all hip hop is crap clearly hasn't been exposed to the wide range of what exists these days.


Anyone making a stupid generalisation like that has clearly never heard 'The Score' by the Fugees - a masterpiece of an album regardless of your personal tastes & preferances.


You seem to be conflating your opinions with facts. With arrogance like that you really should be levitating in front of us LOL
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Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

The only person who has brought race and/or racism into the equation is MortSahlFan. Nothing Doug said was even remotely racist - unless someone chooses to take it that way. And while I agree that not all nastiness is bigoted, sometime it is, but just isn’t as immediately apparent.

When someone says it's one demographic that has this opinion of hip hop, it's very clear what that refers to unless we want to suddenly get very specific about words (when MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing against black people and only assailed hip hop).  I hope you can see the contradiction in your logic but if you can't, *shrug*

I can see why you believe there is a contradiction in my logic, but you’re right that I don’t agree. Part of that, though, is that I think we inherently agree. MortSahlFan never said a single racist thing, but he did edit his post to call someone else racist. While I personally wouldn’t have brought race into the equation, the way Doug did, it was apparent to me (though this is inference, rather than implication) that he was drawing a stereotype - which is by no means the same as stating that all people act that way. Stereotypes are exaggerated, and can show prejudice in a deliberately ironic way. This was, I assume Doug’s intent. The reason I wouldn’t have done the same, is because it can be too easily misconstrued - which is what I think has happened here.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

 Hip hop remains a predominately black music, and resistant to gentrification.

I have heard progressive Italian hip hop and for the last few years Punjabi hip hop has caught on in India.  So I don't agree.  But again, believe whatever you wish because the strength of your beliefs are clear from the portion I am going to quote...

Sorry, this is my mistake. I missed off some words that I thought were implicit there. Perhaps this will make it clearer what I meant. Perhaps not.

Hip Hop remains a predominantly black music for much of the white Western world, and resistant to gentrification.

I come from NZ, where very little is black and white. In fact, one famous NZ hip hop star rapped “I’m not black, I’m brown.” Hip hop is definitely not seen as black music in NZ, and is embraced by people of all colours, and performed by people of all colours. I too, have listened to rap from around the world, and from people of different races. I am not stating that I think hip hop is black music, because I don’t think that.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

But if we are going to bring racism into the equation, then music as the Western world views it tends to be racist. The way music that is not white or Western enough is labelled urban or world, when there is often no need for that. .


No! No! No!  It is just a convenience, that's all.  What do you think we in India call music from America, UK, Italy, et al, all put together?  We just call it Western music.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I fail to see what point you are making. That convenience you speak of is the inherent racism I speak of. Bizarrely every point you then go on to make, are exactly the same points I made myself. I suspect we actually agree on almost everything - perhaps even everything - but somewhere things have become confused along the way. It is likely to be more my fault than yours, as I have a history of not being able to make myself understood in the way I intend.

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Yes, some of the people who attack hip hop, like Ben Shapiro, clearly do so from a racist perspective.  But to presume a racist or bigoted intent the moment somebody attacks hip hop is nearly as bad as holding racist beliefs about hip hop itself. And that is my only point in this discussion.  Do NOT become what you're fighting against.  You can't just jump to make presumptions about a person's identity based on his views about one music genre and then try to defend yourself with word salad.  No, it was wrong to make that presumption in the first place.  Oh but you are not going to admit it, you will keep justifying your and doug's position.  I know how it goes. 

I didn’t make that presumption. Perhaps Doug did, but from the way I read his post, he didn’t either. I definitely do not believe, and have never espoused, that the only reason - or even the usual reason - for not liking hip hop is racial. Of course it’s not. I would very much like to think that racism is the least likely reason for not liking hip hop.

I took Doug’s post to mean that he was suggesting that on this forum (not globally) that many of the people who show disdain for hip hop might fit the Ben Shapiro stereotype. That doesn’t mean he thinks everyone who doesn’t like hip hop fits the stereotype. It’s ironic, because I think you have jumped to presume things about me and Doug, in the way you think we have jumped to presumptions. Admittedly, I can’t speak for Doug - because I really don’t know what he thinks, or what he meant. I inferred from his words a meaning that was not racist. Perhaps I was wrong to do so. I infer from your words that you are making arguments no different to my own, and that everything you say is something I agree with. I suspect we are all singing from the same hymn sheet - but are merely misinterpreting each other’s words.

When I initially spoke up, it was only because ModtSahlFan became personal. I have no problem with people being nasty about a genre, but they don’t need to make it personal. I assume at this point (here we go with presumptions again, sorry) that you will suggest that Doug made it personal first. But pointing out a stereotype is not making something personal - and particularly when it is not directed at any one individual.

Yes, nastiness exists, and no, that nastiness is rarely as racist as some might believe. But nastiness is nastiness, regardless of racism. Why be nasty at all? 🤷🏻‍♂️
Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect
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