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shockedjazz 
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 Posted: April 22 2010 at 08:22 |
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I dont find Sargent Pepers to be repetitive and is fully contaminated by other music ( musi-hall, raggas) and make something especial and unique out of it IMO.
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octopus-4
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 16:27 |
This is not the point, I think. Ok, let's forget the origins and the predecessors. What's the definition of "Classic" prog ? If Classic prog means tracks over 15 minutes in length with contaminations form other genres and not repetitive, let's say "The Nice 1968 - Ars Longa Vita Brevis". It has all the characteristics mentioned above and is not prior 1967.
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sealchan
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 11:40 |
Prog began with the Big Bang if you want to trace it all the way back...or to God depending on your personal preferences.
This conversation can obviously take place at a number of levels. Perhaps we need separate threads so that those knowledgable about music in general can discuss the more distant precursors to prog and those of us more myopically focused on prog and don't look much further back than 1967 can discuss in that context.
Edited by sealchan - April 21 2010 at 11:41
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 11:05 |
The point for me is that folk stars like Gutrie or Dylan (IMO) used a kind of style that was very simple and also very repetitive, because then the music is easy and they could focus on the lyrics, they wanted the public to focus on the lyrics, that was the important thing otherwise a guy with a voice like Dylan,s could never achieve the star status in the scene.
Then Dylan turned rock-pop but thats it!! Is not prog. Maybeit helped trhe contraculture get a intelectual figure to relay due to its existencialism and also because in its transformation helped go i little further than the red folk propagandistic-dry intelectelectualism (like seeger and the like). He get out of cheap politicism in a sarcastical way.
But the music is just inderectly connected with prog, is difficult to see a clear thread between them.
The point is in simple words that folk escene was not connected aestheticaly with improvisation. Blues was, Jazz was, they could be very repetitive to some listener but it was more musical oriented.
Thats way blues could be the root of psychedelic experimentation and progssive music.
Actualy "roger the enginer" from the Yardbirds is quite progressive, prog-blues by all means.
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Devonsidhe
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 06:50 |
I'm trying to remember when was the first time I heard the term progressive rock? I'm sure it was the early 70s and not the late 60s but that doesn't mean it wasn't being used before I heard it.
The point is, no one stood up one day and created this label called progressive rock and proclaimed that all music under this definition created after this date shall be called progressive rock. Progressive rock was a label created to define something that was already in existence.
A consensus cannot be achieved on the first prog record or the beginning of prog until a definition has been accepted and I am seeing more and more bands claiming to be progressive now that it is becoming more and more commercially viable. Bands that avoided the prog label when it was commercial suicide are now claiming to be progressive. I am glad that progessive music is becoming more popular but I am seeing a little revisionist history now or maybe the bands are coming out of the closet?
I have also heard for years that KC's Court of the Crimson King is the first truly prog album but I have never heard where this appelation originated. Who was the first to claim this? I agree that this has been repeated and relayed to the point of acceptance but does this need to be challenged? Looking back with hindsight, I see several bands and albums that I would consider prog that came out before King Crimson's debut.
Also, in the same vein as an earlier comment of prog having origins in the 30s, punk could be considered prog in a very broad definition for the simple reason, it progresses from the earlier basic roots of rock. Point being, almost anything can be considered progressive if it is original in concept but is influenced by earlier work of other and older influences. Even Mozart would fit that definition.
However, I do not consider either to be prog. The definition for prog is still very fuzzy and dependent on each of us' personal opinion. Like I said, bands I did not consider prog in the 70s are considered prog today. The definition is broadening. Where do we draw the line?
As to the origins of prog, I have always felt it to be linked to the rising popularity of albums over singles in the mid 60s. Bands were given more time to fill and create. Instead of writing pop songs (short stories), bands were able to write longer and more intricate pieces (novels). Some bands just wrote a song or two that may be considered prog but never an album. I have always felt that Suite: Judy Blue Eyes is very prog though CSN is not considered a prog band -- even by themselves. So it may be argued that a band is not prog unless their whole focus (album) is prog? It's kind of a purist argument.
To sum up my own conclusions, Sgt. Pepper may be the first commercially successful prog album since it joins more than one musical influence and the uniqueness of Day in the Life. Pet Sounds did come out before that and there are several songs I love off that album but I am not sure that it is prog. When I think of the Beach Boys and prog, I think of Good Vibrations more. Either way, both had their influences that may be considered earlier prog efforts.
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tamijo
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 04:20 |
Wouldent sell ANY records if it was realeased today either.
That is why this hole genre debate, is prog better than other music, is pretty absurd, people sometimes belive that Punk killed Prog, but that is rubbish, music evolve, change, pick a bite here and there, and new music appear, difrent but including idears from the past. Without the development in Rock music trough the last 40-50 years, it would be very boring indeed.
What im saying here is, you are right, Prog. did just appear, and prog. has no starting point, prog is just a label, a box, you can put some records into, retrospectivly.
Edited by tamijo - April 21 2010 at 04:25
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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octopus-4
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 04:09 |
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It's NOT always the case. It was in the early 60s. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that Close to the Edge would have sold a single copy if published in 1955. The people that I have mentioned, but I omitted a lot of them, helped breaking the previous schemas and gave the following authors the freedom to look for alternative ways of expressions. Can you imagine Interstellar Overdirve played in the 50s?
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moshkito
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 17:01 |
 octopus-4 wrote:
I want to clarify: by mentioning Dylan, the blues revival and psychedelia as the roots of prog, I was looking at the end-users. A musical genre can't have birth without listeners and they are present only when the times are mature. In what we call prog there's of course jazz, classical (mainly symphonic), as well as medieval and folk. I don't think it could have been possible without the changes in the way people is used to approach to music. After the door was open, we have found a complete new universe on which each artist has found his own roots and influences, but they needed somebody to play for, first. |
Not sure this is always the case. There are a lot of individual folk artists, that tend to just mind their own thing and people just ... gather around to listen to them. And then there are folks that like the media and attention and the whole thing, and in the end they are not as good musicians and poets since you can not satisfy an audience. You have to satisfy yourself and hope that the audience lives it with you!
Specially today, with the Internet, many bands will never have to set a foot on the stage and they can sell music off their web site and keep on crinting and musicaling along.
I think that a part of us, wants the attention. I've been asked, when I write poetry and other stuff, who do I write for? And while I have to admit that getting a little bit of attention or simply somone patting yo in the back is kinda nice once in a while ... but I have to tell you that I do not write for anyone else but my own vision. My only secret is that I have to stick with what I see, as the rest confuses me horribly and I can not see that "inner movie". I think that many other artists, writers and musicians also have the same or similar possibilities. Not everyone does things, because they must have this and that.
Commercial think tank philosopy dictates that you have to gain from it in order to be successful, and I'm sorry to tell you that is one of the greatest falacies there is, and also one of the most malicious of events that any one can possibly work with. You can not satisfy the public and more than you can your family ... it's never good enough! You have to make an inner decision once you "know" your art and yourself, and if you do not separate yourself from that insane "star", "commercial" world, I am not sure that you will be there long enough to do something valuable. Have a hit one day and might as well go clean bathrooms in downtown LA's Greyhound bus depot!
Folk players, in many ways are perfect for being anti every thing and doing their own thing. It's also simpler since you can just walk down the street with your guitar and get some attention! AND it is that very thing that is what "makes them" who they are -- and as such, they have a lot more opportunities and chances to be effective and create much more than we're used to hear. But not everyone is so free form and experimental. Bob Dylan was in his early days. He is NOT, today!. If Bob Dylan, who was and IS, one of the most eccentric and separatist of all of them out there, did not understand that, I doubt a lot of his words would make sense. Others that also fit that area are Roy Harper (see if you can handle it), Peter Hammill, and only a handful of others, that live within themselves and will not sacrifice their vision for anyone or any money. There is what you see, and then there is what others see. Which do you want to be?
You live for yourself in the end. If it weren't for that no art in the history of all arts would be remembered or checked or seen or heard or read by you! That's a very important concept to bring home! Extremely important, and it will be even more visible in the 21st century with the Internet and will change music history forever -- the history that you and I can sense, but will never see!
Edited by moshkito - April 20 2010 at 17:09
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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octopus-4
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 04:42 |
I want to clarify: by mentioning Dylan, the blues revival and psychedelia as the roots of prog, I was looking at the end-users. A musical genre can't have birth without listeners and they are present only when the times are mature. In what we call prog there's of course jazz, classical (mainly symphonic), as well as medieval and folk. I don't think it could have been possible without the changes in the way people is used to approach to music. After the door was open, we have found a complete new universe on which each artist has found his own roots and influences, but they needed somebody to play for, first.
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moshkito
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 19:05 |
Hi,
It's sad that the only link that we can make to the beginning of what we call "prog" has its roots in pop music only. It's even weirder when so many of our "prog" biggies had a long arm of classic music behind them, and were above average musical minds already! Like we can not given them credit for being master/better musicians ... we have to call them "prog". But we often do not accept the inside of where it comes from and would prefer to create an idealistic concept and compare everyone else to it!
Pop music, for the most part has never been original and has, for the most part, not been the progenitor of anything except hits for the radio and money for some folks. It just so happened that in the mid 60's the world of pop music blew up the concept that the arts and music were the same thing and pop music was garbage. And it took a lot of people and brawn and heart to get it all across.
But to specify that one this and one that started it all, is kinda strange, like the world didn't exist until the day that you, or your friends learned that one song came alive? Don't you think that is a little weird? ... or are you going to sit there and call me a jerk because I said it? -- Check the difference first, please!
"Prog" for all intents and purposes, probably started in the early 1930's and might have its first go with the Melies of the cinema and the "waking up" that the "media" started at the beginning of the 20th century. And it took 30 years for things like the Surrealistic Manifesto to come alive and help usher a massive literary and film tradition, which was also augmented with music, though no one discusses it here.
And then there is one other piece of American history. The music that eventually we came to appreciate as Miles Davis and the like. Some call it "jazz" and what was that all about? ... long cuts ... and vibrant musicianship ... but sadly, the majority of them were black ... and when the movie studios figured out they could also make money off their stars singing, guess which music hit the toilet first ... the most creative of stuff and original, got buried by radio and movies, and you got Judy Garland, Bing Crosby and many others.
The real revolution started before the 60's when theater, Elia Kazan, Orson Welles and many that came from the Actors Studio were breaking out, with a new feeling. And soon enough it went to music. And it was a lot of this music that was around many of our parents that we often ignore and can not discuss. And this is not only in America, but also in Europe. Many a jazz player left America when the movie studios went for the "stars" and a whole lot of other players could not get anything recorded anymore.
You can get a really good feeling about all this by seeing Tom Dowd's DVD ... it will be the greatest single music lesson you ever got.
From the early 60's, the european music scene was already showing signs of breaking out. Even stalwarts like Gilbert Becaud and Edith Piaf were pushing the buttons. But then that's like saying that Bertold Brecht and Kurt Weill were not? ... when they were, in essence, the Sex Pistols of that time? ... the raw'ness of the whole thing was scary, and then politics got into it and kinda killed it, but Bertold Brecht is remembered, a lot better than Kurt Weill, which doesn't help our discussion any! But you ought to check out and maybe ask why someone like David Bowie would want to do some Kurt Weill!
The arts in Europe mix a lot. A heck of a lot more than the US, where the commercial attitudes towards things tend to kill more art than it helps. And sometimes, I think that boards like this hurt some. I really want to believe they do more for the music than they do not, but in the end, the only thing that can be said is "it's prog" or "it's not prog" ... and in the end, you still don't know a thing, because no one knows the difference, and the definition is not musically defined any better than it is ethnocentrically defined.
But that's almost like saying that one place had "prog" and the rest of the world didn't. And that is not true and never was. Music and all the arts are all around us ... how much of it do you want to look at?
Ask yourself that first!
If we are to determine which of these was the most prog of them all? Or where it came from, no one can compare to the mind and work of Frank Zappa. From using Varese concepts to Chopin to free form to anything else you could think of no one could mix things any better and make them work ... and make fun of all the serious music minded people that never think anything is music except what they say is music ... and we're almost doing the same thing here! ... excuse me ... he's not from London and can't be prog! ... and his lyrics tell us to stuff it too!
Edited by moshkito - April 20 2010 at 16:32
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 18:19 |
logoman wrote:
Er, at the risk of sounding obvious, " From Genesis to Revelation" refined later by "Trespass". Nothing touches them for my own personal awakening to prog 69/70. |
I was going to make a joke like that and you beat me to it.  I saw a comment dismissing Piper At The Gates Of Dawn as not being prog. Not going to argue about that but it's prog to me. Same for Days Of Future Passed.
Edited by Slartibartfast - April 19 2010 at 18:20
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Progosopher
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 18:06 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Dylan demonstrated that a song can have a meaning and is not just words over 2 minutes of music. |
This is one of those important steps I alluded to, yet it is still only one step. I would never consider Dylan myself to be proto-prog but let's give credit where it is due. Look at how many Prog artists who were influenced by Dylan. Steve Howe, for example, did an entire album of Dylan covers, and even named one of his children after the guy. I have praised and defended Dylan in past threads, but I am not a big fan of his music. It does get repetitive, it's relatively simple in structure, and his voice can get really grating, yet at the same time he is one of the great songwriters of our time because of his lyrics.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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richardh
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 17:12 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
And mine as well. Psychedelia and Prog are two different things. |
I agree. The Nice moved on from the former to the latter very quickly (between their first and second albums in fact).
However King Crimsons debut album has a completeness about it in prog terms that no one had matched at that time.It became the main inspiration for many bands going into the seventies.
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octopus-4
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 15:41 |
Dylan demonstrated that a song can have a meaning and is not just words over 2 minutes of music. The blues first, but more the English blues revival with long improvised riffs helped people to appreciate long instrumental tracks, even if repetitive. Zappa, Beatles, Pink Floyd and psychedelia added new instruments and sounds. The willing to break with the past typical of the flower power in the USA and of the London's summer of love at the end of the 60s did the rest. I think this is where prog is from.
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sealchan
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 14:22 |
Although my familiarity with prog is moderate at best (that is, I have a moderate sized collection of albums from the era when prog first emerged), I think that to determine when progressive rock began you have to come up with a solid definition (which itself will be debated, but at least an anchor for discussion) of what constitutes a progressive rock song and/or album and/or band.
I have come up with a working definition which I think gets at the heart of what progressive rock is. It eliminates any of the elements that I believe are secondary like what instruments are used, how tricky the time signatures are, album has a concept, etc...and this allows me to be very specific. It also intentionally eliminates the sub-genre confusion...at least as far as agreement on the definition is concerned.
Once you have a definition for marking progressive vs non-progressive music, you can track the prevalence of progressive rock songs and progressive rock albums over time. There will inevitably be a small trickle that turns into a flood at around the turn of the decade (60s to 70s) or a year or so later.
The birth of progressive rock can then be determined to be either the very first progressive song, or the very first progressive album or the very first album that was widely influential in the formation of additional progressive rock songs and albums.
Interestingly, I see Days of Future Passed as being out there a bit from the prog flowering that occurred in 1970. In the Court of the Crimson King seems to be closer to the start of the momentum for bands to convert to progressive rock than Days of Future Passed. 1967 might be a time when concept albums reached a critical mass of popularity (as opposed to progressive rock per se) and the influence of this and psychedelic music combined in 1969 and 1970 to give birth to what I would call a number of bands that either switched gears into what is now called progressive or newly formed into a band that was progressive from the getgo.
My definition of prog focuses on the composition of the song having a linear progression of musical ideas which tend to de-emphasize the vocal chorus in favor of the "instrumental chorus" and/or contain musical passages which have a variety of musical ideas analogous to telling a story (a linear series of events) rather than arguing a thesis (a number of different points which all focus on one main thesis as in an essay).
Pop music is all about the chorus where the vocalist sings and the catch is strong and the rest of the song is auxilliary and supportive of the main chorus. Progressive rock tends to turn the song's focus into a "journey" of some sort through the progression of multiple musical ideas in a more or less linear fashion.
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ghost_of_morphy
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 12:58 |
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And mine as well. Psychedelia and Prog are two different things.
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 10:43 |
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IMO of course.
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 09:55 |
I think people here mix psychedelia with prog, but while they share some ingredients (non-commercial developing of music, mainly) dont think its exactly the same movement, we could say prog is a cultured after effect of more intuitive psychedelia.
By the way.....Dylan proto-prog? in wich sense? Lyrical? maybe possibly, true. Musicaly? Non at all and "desolation row" is the perfect example always repeating the same verse chorus structure adnauseam.
I cant find these musically repetitive style of Dylan,s music ennancing at all by itself (without the lyrics), and thats whats prog for me is about, music thats ennancing by itself. That the musical aspect is so important you dont mind understanding the lenguaje or lyrics. Thats why we have italian music section in an english lenguage based page!. Prog is not protests folk music even if it have sound content in the theme and lyrics.
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Progosopher
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Posted: April 18 2010 at 20:29 |
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As I've said before, I resist the notion of a specific starting point for something as broad and deep as progressive rock. There are, however, highlights in a sequence of many projects that contribute to the birth of Prog. Others have mentioned Dylan, The Who, The Beatles as significant, to which I would also add The Beach Boys great album Pet Sounds. This was the album that inspired the Beatles to do Sgt. Peppers. Even before that, we can see Buddy Holly experimenting with orchestrations on early Rock 'n' Roll. As innovative as In the Court of the Crimson King was to Rock, it reflects such a heavy influence of Jazz that we cannot say it emerged out of an empty void. All musicians, and thus all the music they create, stems from earlier influences. None of it is isolated.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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SilverEclipse
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Posted: April 18 2010 at 17:04 |
I think it probably started somewhere in the combined minds of Keith Emerson, Ian McDonald, and probably some of the guys in Soft Machine and Pink Floyd (although I do not look at Piper At The Gates Of Dawn as having ANYTHING to do with prog... that was straight psychedelia)
The Beatles to me may have introduced a new way to look at rock music... but I really don't see anything I would call prog in their discography.
I'm inclined to go with The Thoughts Of Emerlist Davjack as the first time progressive rock was made available to the public. Rondo.... yea... that doesn't work on any level other than prog.
And Ian McDonald WAS the driving creative force behind In The Court Of The Crimson King.
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"and if the band your in starts playing different tunes, I'll see you on the dark side of the moon"
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Genesis of Classic Prog : When did it all begin ?
