The "problem" with prog metal

man@arms wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off.  Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding.  You nailed it!  The vocals are a definite problem for me, which is a shame since the music is often quite good.  Getting past the vocals is the hard part.

I don't think that Cookie Monster vocals are bad in general, but many bands overuse it, its a technique to utilize for maximum effect, but they oversaturate with it.  Also, many bands' singers just aren't very good at it, so it sounds comical (Ex: Trivium - ok so not prog metal but a popular metal band)

woa!!! you got me all wrong!!! I didnt mean that prog metal in general should have death metal vocals throughout, i totally disagree with that! What i meant to say was that prog metal that is influenced by extreme metal styles such as death and black metal (opeth's main two influences besides prog and classic rock) should retain their vocals.As you can see in extreme progressive metal bands many of them use singing as a refrain for the softer parts or slower riffs in the song. Mikael for example chooses to sing only when the music needs singing behind it because it suits the mood of the music. Could you hear singing behind the main verse riff in master's apprentices???!!! I mean come on!!! I get so sick of this stuff. Metal is metal whether you like it or not, and most prog metal bands are slightly more influenced by metal than prog, FACE IT! I am a metalhead at heart who has happened to develop a total love for prog because of my interest in metal, and when i started listening to metal even those bands knew the appropriate times to sing, and the appropriate times to get heavy and let out some primal screams. Vocals more than any other instrument except maybe drums need to fit the music they are in front of. Queensryche or dream theater have geoff tate and james labrie, and bands like Opeth and Cynic have mikael and tony and paul. The reason those vocalists belong in those bands is because they fit the style or personal preferences of the band and they sound good in that setting. I sing and I used to do "cookie monster" vocals (which in the metal scene are called growls by the way), and they both convey the emotion and lyrical content, just in a different musical setting.

StyLaZyn wrote: Yontar wrote: Take this into consideration. Could you hear one of opeth's super heavy sections with normal vocals??? I mean that would be freaking annoying. Death metal songs are meant to have vocals that fit their style. I could never imagine death or nile for example with a normal singer, even if that singer was fantastic. I mean it would sound idiotic. I understand what people are saying when they say that extreme metal vocals annoy them, but as chuck schuldiner said " just let the metal flow". Heavy music was never meant to have normal vocals, it just wouldn't match, and would you rather have music that fits your vocal preferences or music that coherently makes melodic sense.   Yes, those Prog Metal bands with actual singing vocals exist as Mike points out. And yes, I CAN hear Opeth with normal vox and I think it would be quite enjoyable. Those forced Death Metal burp, or Cookie Monster, vocals are the most silly thing I've ever heard and don't serve a purpose other than effect, but that is my opinion. I don't think it would be idiotic at all.

woa!!! you got me all wrong!!! I didnt mean that prog metal in general should have death metal vocals throughout, i totally disagree with that! What i meant to say was that prog metal that is influenced by extreme metal styles such as death and black metal (opeth's main two influences besides prog and classic rock) should retain their vocals.As you can see in extreme progressive metal bands many of them use singing as a refrain for the softer parts or slower riffs in the song. Mikael for example chooses to sing only when the music needs singing behind it because it suits the mood of the music. Could you hear singing behind the main verse riff in master's apprentices???!!! I mean come on!!! I get so sick of this stuff. Metal is metal whether you like it or not, and most prog metal bands are slightly more influenced by metal than prog, FACE IT! I am a metalhead at heart who has happened to develop a total love for prog because of my interest in metal, and when i started listening to metal even those bands knew the appropriate times to sing, and the appropriate times to get heavy and let out some primal screams. Vocals more than any other instrument except maybe drums need to fit the music they are in front of. Queensryche or dream theater have geoff tate and james labrie, and bands like Opeth and Cynic have mikael and tony and paul. The reason those vocalists belong in those bands is because they fit the style or personal preferences of the band and they sound good in that setting. I sing and I used to do "cookie monster" vocals (which in the metal scene are called growls by the way), and they both convey the emotion and lyrical content, just in a different musical setting.

Edited by Yontar - May 10 2007 at 15:09

Mike Baker (Shadow Gallery) is outstanding too ... but an aquired taste. Geoff Tate (Queensryche) is brilliant and has a slight theatrical touch which reminds me of Peter Gabriel. Devin Townsend is an amazing vocalist - but not for everyone (he's very experimental and switches from brutal growls to high pitched screams to normal singing in an instant).

From non-prog metal there are DIO, Bruce Dickinson, Sebastian Bach (some don't like his attitude and I sympathize, however his voice is awesome). And of course there's the congenial Warrel Dane from Nevermore/Sanctuary - a combination of Geoff Tate and Rob Halford begins to describe his capabilities.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ listen to Symphony X ... Russell Allen has an awesome voice. Easily my favorite (Prog) Metal vocalist!

So true!

I can't believe people are being turned off from prog metal by vocals!

If one does not enjoy Mikael Åkerfeldt's growling vocals, there are many other, "clean" singers who are very enjoyable, such as the mentioned Russel Allen, and also Jørn Lande(Ark), Roy Khan(Kamelot and Conception), James LaBrie(Dream Theater, but beware, not all people enjoy his vocals equally), Maynard James Keenan(Tool), etc. etc....

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The only problem I see is that it's too Metal to be really Prog and too Prog to be really Metal, so some musicians get caught in the middle of a loud pompous and guitar virtuoso based  genre and a normally softer but also pompous and virtuoso based genre.   The ego of a Metalhead and a Proghead together, exceed the dimension of any stage.   Iván

What  ? I can't hear you. Let me take this speaker out of my ear ... Ok, let's see ... if we replace guitar with keyboard in that last phrase , we get ?

StyLaZyn wrote: I like Prog Metal, but some bands that use that Cookie Monster style vocal are just a turn off.  Opeth is a prime example. I like very few of their songs because of that annoying style. Otherwise, I think they are outstanding.

 You nailed it!  The vocals are a definite problem for me, which is a shame since the music is often quite good.  Getting past the vocals is the hard part.

Certif1ed wrote:   As ever, no offence taken - I only question your views on Neo-Prog (wrong thread, I know...) in the hope that you'll be able to articulate where you hear the "regressive tendencies" - to talk more about it, so that I can understand what you mean, since it is so diametrically opposed to the way I hear it.   Even a know-all like me knows when he's digesting the words of a teacher...

Edited by Peter Rideout - April 02 2007 at 16:26

^ then simply don't take it to heart. I don't take any of these discussions to heart anymore ... music is not an exact science and taking it too seriously *will* inevitably ruin it for you as a thing to simply enjoy and appreciate.

Peter Rideout wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: I really don't think that Prog Metal is any more (or less) popular today than it was ten years ago ... it's not like Prog Metal is "taking over" all the Prog Rock fans. Well, having been here since the start, I think metal (and threads about it) is more popular overall HERE than it was in 2004. I think as the new generation of prog fans grows in numbers and influence, PM will only grow in popularity. I've been here for quite some time now ... not since 2004, but almost. I didn't notice any particular increase in the popularity of prog metal here ... as a matter of fact, I see an increase in the popularity of post rock/metal (and many put post metal closer to post rock than to prog metal) and what magazines call "new art rock" - The Mars Volta, Porcupine Tree (newer albums), Pure Reason Revolution etc..   This is getting rather tiresome for me. Can any other longterm members from my generation back me on that perception? Dick? Bob? Dan? Jim? Tony? Vibe? Has metal grown in popularity here or not , and is the younger generation of prog fans more likely to embrace it than the generation weaned on the old stuff, or not? (Am I really imagining all of this? If there really is no broad connection between modern metal and listener age, then I'd love to hear someone other than Mike, or an offended young metal fan, say as much.) I'm sure they will (or already did), I'm just adding my 2 7/8 cents.   No offense to Mike -- I just want someone else to explain to me how everything I ever write about metal is wrong, and disrespectful of its many fans. Oops! Should I not say it has "many" fans? I think that only 60% of all you've written about metal is wrong.   Then you can perhaps go on to prove to me that Justin Timberlake's fans are every bit as likely to be middle-aged (straight) men, as they are teen aged girls like my daughter. Why should I try to prove that - it's wrong and I never said that. For the record: Prog Metal has been around for more than twenty years ... Dream Theater celebrated their 20th anniversary last year. The band as well as their fans are typically in their 30s or 40s ... which doesn't mean that there aren't any younger fans or that indeed prog metal may be more popular among younger people, but for current teenagers prog metal is about as trendy as prog rock (meaning: not at all).   Through my work, I encounter plenty of teen-twenties metal fans, but I honestly don't know of EVEN ONE death or black metal fan from my peer group, or from among my friends/acquaintances who are my approximate age. Meet Certif1ed. Even though he may prefer Kreator to Death ... those genres are also more than 20 years old in origin ... "true" Black Metal came a bit later, but was already "initialized" through 80s bands like Celtic Frost.   (And when I was young, my parents and their friends weren't into Zeppelin, Sabbath or Deep Purple, either! Overall, the different generations listened to different music (which was written and marketed specifically to appeal to them). Has that really all changed, now?  Are teen-twenty-something music purchasing patterns really just the same as those of old farts my age?) Is it so bad that prog metal, just like prog rock, is more than a short trend? It peaked in the mid 90s and since then it lives on in a small group of devoted fans, and this group is aging slowly but steadily.   (Mike, I know you really resent it whenever I dare mention metal, age and listening patterns in the same breath, but as the average member age here fell, metal simply became more prevalent in the topics and reviews. (I'm honestly okay with that. The metal fans tend to like the old stuff, too, and I still have a place here. No one is forcing me to buy and review  DT albums, and Jon Anderson is yet to start growling. (I wonder what that would sound like!) Well, you're always around when the topic is metal ... and why not?   Is it totally unreasonable -- or somehow hostile -- of me to think that modern metal fans are more likely to be younger than the original generation of prog fans? (You will never convince me that, for example, black or death metal fans are just as likely to be in their mid forties, like me, as they are to be in their teens and twenties. I know there are always exceptions, Mike, but do you really think that age has nothing measurable to do with overall listening patterns, and genre preferences? Are advertisers/music industry/magazines totally off base when they inquire about respondent ages in their polls and studies? Does the "average" middle aged man really listen to the same music, and exhibit the same tastes & spending patterns, as the teen skateboarder? I know what you're getting at. I'd say that as a general rule of thumb young people are more likely to be attracted to aggressive or "rebel" music ... which - among other non-metal styles as punk, goth/wave, "gangster"-rap etc. - includes most styles of metal. But I am sure that this is not a thing of youth which automatically "wears off" as people grow older. The main point is: Prog Metal is not childish. People like Certif1ed look down upon the genre, saying that true Prog, Jazz and Classical music are much more advanced in many aspects. But still most Prog Metal is many, many levels above simple popular music. I love Prog Metal for what it is ... and I'm sure that the essence of what it represents is not compatible with adolescence. In fact, I think that Prog Metal is the "grown-up" version of simple metal ... which doesn't mean that it's not for young people ... growing up is not necessarily related to age.   Will I always be in the wrong, and run afoul of you, whenever I make any observations, no mater how carefully and respectfully worded about metal? Am I simply not allowed to ever mention metal, as I will always be assumed to be attacking its place here, and/or its fans, if I do mention it? Please, by all means do criticise metal ... I love a good argument. I'll try to keep my comments civil, which I didn't always manage to do in the past ... but the mere fact that I'm responding to your posts does *not* mean that I want you to shut up ... rather the reverse.   And no, I don't think its "taking over" the prog fans, either (did I say that?) -- I just think that as time marches on, more and more prog fans are also metal fans. Overall, young prog fans seem to like metal too -- is that such a controversial, completely unfounded observation? No, but I also observed that there are many young members here who hate metal with a passion. There are always two sides of a story (make that three if lawyers are present).   Time is on the newer form's side. New is always more interesting than old ... but all that is new eventually grows old. In 100 years from now Prog Rock will be 135 years old, Prog Metal 120 years ...   Anyway, it's here, it's here to stay, and its very popular here -- can we agree on that much, at least? Of course! Or should I -- in particular -- simply never mention metal, just to be on the safe side? No. What I would recommend to you though is not to try to get into prog metal at all cost ... I think that it contains some elements which you simply don't like.