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Do the Beatles get too much credit..
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Floydman View Drop Down
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

13th Floor elevators heavily predate the Beatles, AND their music is more psychedelic.  Even some mid sixties jazz was more psychedelic than The Beatles, who aren't even very psychedelic.  

Regardless, I'm going to keep this going to close in on my 1000 posts.
 
Does it really matter who did what first or who was more psychedelic? Some of the more psychedelic Beatles songs were psychedelic or trippy without the use of any guitars like "Blue Jay Way" or "Only a Northern Song" or constructed with loops "Tomorrow Never Knows" as a musical backdrop if you want to talk about innovation or creating psychedelic music. I know their were other great bands but listen to the freaky to the fade out/silence/then fades back in with reversed freaky electronic effects and jam on "Strawberry Fields Forever". No one on the rock side were doing things like this to be honest.
 
 I think when you are as popular and influential as the Beatles some people need to something to bring them down. As it is the Beatles you hear some psychedelic influences on Rubber Soul.
 
The 13th Floor Elevators  covered the Beatles "The Word" which I think they viewed the song with some psychedelic influences. So again 13th Floor elevators don't even predate the Beatles. If anything they influenced 13th Floor elevators first.LOL
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Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds Pet Sounds +++++, it is the first prog-related album and is verry inovative album, probably not the best but it is damn good, record which sadly are to overshadowed by Sg Pepper...,


Brian Wilson only aspired to make Pet Sounds after listening to Rubber Soul.

Sorry, Beatles still win. Tongue
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Just cause we're talking psyche, Fifty Foot Hose's Cauldron is a favourite of mine (from 1967).
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13th Floor elevators heavily predate the Beatles, AND their music is more psychedelic.  Even some mid sixties jazz was more psychedelic than The Beatles, who aren't even very psychedelic.  

Regardless, I'm going to keep this going to close in on my 1000 posts.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I voted 'No' but with the caveat that they are afforded waaaay too many royalty cheques as the unwitting architects of Prog. Brilliantly written, arranged, performed and recorded pop songs are things very close to my heart but have precisely squat to do with the ultimate achievements and innovation of ELP, Crimson, the Nice, Genesis and Yes etc
Whenever the Fab Four attempted to step too far outside the verse/chorus/middle eight format they fell flat on their faces IMO. e.g. Revolution # 9 being but a gauche fanboys homage to Stockhausen amounting to no more than weird random sh*t.
Even Lennon's much trumpeted experimentation e.g. Strawberry Fields, Tomorrow Never Knows, Mr Kite etc (which I adore) work because despite their prescient and innovative structures, it's the tried and tested glue of classic songcraft that means they're still standing today. John's one abiding love in music was very basic early rock'n'roll.
As far as pop songs are concerned, the Beatles have no peers.
 
I don't get this at all. The early Beatles as lauded by people like Dylan, Richards and specifically the Byrds were known for their interesting chord choices.
 
Most rock bands prior the Beatles hardly used bridges or middle eights or even changed time signatures. Which means the Beatles as compared to their blues-based peers were changing chords and melodies much more than someone in 1964-1965. The Beatles didn't use a chorus in many of their songs or the basic blues structure of verse/verse/verse. Songs like "You Can't Do That" messed with the basic blues model by using the blues based verse and then adding a pop like styled bridge on songs "You Can't Do That" or "She's A Woman" basically creating blues/pop hybrid. One of the many reasons they sounded different than American artists.
 
The Beatles would actually change time signatures on the bridge which was basically unheard of in rock music in songs like "We Can Work It Out" and "She Said She Said". Songs like "Good Morning Good Morning" constantly changed time signatures and "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" alternated 3/4 and 4/4 which each section. Not really common stuff in rock music.
 
There is nothing basic about the song structures on many of the tracks after Rubber Soul espeically "A Day in the Life" or "Happiness is a Warm Gun". People criticize "Revolution #9" but what actually is the song structure for that?


Edited by Floydman - September 10 2010 at 13:06
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

I think they definitely get too much credit.  It drives me absolutely nuts when people credit them for inventing psych rock.  Piper at the Gates of Dawn was recorded at the EXACT same time in the EXACT SAME building and is way more psychedelic than The Beatles ever were. There were so many bands with the same style as the Beatles waiting to break through, the Beatles were just the ones who did, and were the most main stream and well marketed.  If listening to prog rock has taught us anything isn't it that popularity does not equal musical quality?

That being said, they have some nice tunes.  But they're a pop group, don't blow them out of proportion.
 
Interesting the Beatles as voted by 200 musicians on VH1 100 GREATEST ARTISTS WERE VOTED THE NUMBER ONE ARTIST. I would like to know what bands were doing songs like "Eleanor Rigby", "Tomorrow Never Knows" or most of Sgt Pepper. They sound nothing like the Doors or even the Beach Boys Pet Sounds. The Beatles had influences like everyone else but basically every band reacted to what the Beatles were doing and some of it was negative though
 
Please get your facts straight The Beatles already recorded "Tomorrow Never Knows' and much of Revolver in April 1966. In fact Syd Barrett main influence was the Beatles and "Arnold Layne" was influenced by "Strawberry Fields Forever"   

The Musical Influences of Syd Barrett

 

The Beatles

'Revolver' (1966

 Strawberry Fields Forever' 

(single 17 February 1967)

*'Strawberry Fields Forever' marked the way for Barrett in its revolutionary use of poetic images and superb psychedelic arrangement. It was released just ten days before the sessions for 'Arnold Layne', which bears its influence.

 

Beatles

'Seargent Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band' (

 
 
 


Edited by Floydman - September 10 2010 at 12:44
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Yes. 
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

But they're a pop group, don't blow them out of proportion.


Er, what?  Constructing a short song that is absolutely not cliched in any way, is very fresh and still hits the spot right on the first listen and appeals to a large audience is possibly the hardest kind of songwriting there is.  And few could master it the way Beatles did, Stevie Wonder in the 70s came close. Certainly none of your beloved prog rock bands could have written pop masterpieces like either artist and the evidence of Genesis and Yes seems to support my statement. Wink   Your statements seem to suggest that you have great difficulty in accepting that a Beatles fan too, like fans of any other band, would have heard their music and formed coherent opinions on it and want to believe that we all blindly follow the herd.  Which other band in the 60s could have written Love You to, Day In the Life, Because, I Want You, Tomorrow Never Knows, Taxman, Strawberry Fields Forever, In My Life, Penny Lane?  That is such an eclectic mix of songs. 


Edited by rogerthat - September 10 2010 at 08:18
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Point taken Chopper but creating a door doesn't make anybody an architect.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I voted 'No' but with the caveat that they are afforded waaaay too many royalty cheques as the unwitting architects of Prog. Brilliantly written, arranged, performed and recorded pop songs are things very close to my heart but have precisely squat to do with the ultimate achievements and innovation of ELP, Crimson, the Nice, Genesis and Yes etc
 
I think the quotes above from Fripp and Bruford clearly show that is incorrect.
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I voted 'No' but with the caveat that they are afforded waaaay too many royalty cheques as the unwitting architects of Prog. Brilliantly written, arranged, performed and recorded pop songs are things very close to my heart but have precisely squat to do with the ultimate achievements and innovation of ELP, Crimson, the Nice, Genesis and Yes etc
Whenever the Fab Four attempted to step too far outside the verse/chorus/middle eight format they fell flat on their faces IMO. e.g. Revolution # 9 being but a gauche fanboys homage to Stockhausen amounting to no more than weird random sh*t.
Even Lennon's much trumpeted experimentation e.g. Strawberry Fields, Tomorrow Never Knows, Mr Kite etc (which I adore) work because despite their prescient and innovative structures, it's the tried and tested glue of classic songcraft that means they're still standing today. John's one abiding love in music was very basic early rock'n'roll.
As far as pop songs are concerned, the Beatles have no peers.
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Originally posted by Floydman Floydman wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Undoubtedly the Beatles were hugely influential (has been incredibly popular), but do you think/feel that the Beatles commonly get too much credit and/or consideration in terms of innovation and origination?

I certainly think so.

Use of heavy limiting on drums and guitar (pioneered on Revolver, rarely if ever used before by anyone) - everywhere these days
High use of treble and equalization of guitars and vocals (rare before Beatles Rubber Soul) - everywhere afterwards
Key changes in middle 8/bridges of songs - everywhere
Use of weird/experimental guitar chords in pop songs (VERY IN ROCK MUSIC before the Beatles) - now everywhere
Artificial Double Tracking - invented by Beatles Engineer Ken Townsend, now used in one form or another on almost every song by anyone
Guitar fuzz box/distortion pedal on bass used by the Beatles "Think For Yourself"  during Rubber Soul sessions. You might hear these nowadays too
Pioneering use of vocal effects like phasing/revolving Leslie/etc. - pioneered by the Beatles on Revolver, used extensively on Sgt Peppers - used everywhere you hear any slightly psychedelic sounding song
Direct Injection (DI) bass and guitar rock recordings - used by Beatles engineers on Revolver and later. Prominent on distorted guitar on Revolution - used by virtually everyone nowadays
Use of editing - Used by the Beatles first to combine multiple takes of songs into one - nowadays this is done on virtually every modern pop recording using computer technology like Pro-tools
Varispeed recording (speeding up or slowing down recordings to alter the characteristics of instruments or voice) - used extensively by the Beatles first on Revolver and afterwards - now used commonly
The list could go on an on.
Great post. Can I also add that, outside of the music, they were the first to look on the album cover as a proper work of art with gatefold sleeves and the lyrics printed on the sleeve itself.
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To appreciate the full impact of The Beatles, you had to be around at the time. The quotes from Fripp and Bruford above are typical of the impact Sgt Pepper had on musicians when it was release - it gave them the freedom to experiment in the studio as The Fabs were the first band to have the real power to do that.
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

I think they definitely get too much credit.  It drives me absolutely nuts when people credit them for inventing psych rock.  
That is horribly incorrect! mention those who state they invented psych rock (whatever you mean by 'psych rock').
 
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Piper at the Gates of Dawn was recorded at the EXACT same time in the EXACT SAME building and is way more psychedelic than The Beatles ever were.
 
That is horribly incorrect! A Day In The Life was recorded before Pink Floyd entered the sudio.
 
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

There were so many bands with the same style as the Beatles waiting to break through,
 
That is horribly incorrect! I would like to know those bands please.
 
 
 
Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

That being said, they have some nice tunes.  But they're a pop group, don't blow them out of proportion.
 
That is horribly wrong! You obviously do not know what pop music is.
 
 
LOL


Edited by earlyprog - September 10 2010 at 06:03
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

 
People just want to bring the Beatles into everything these days.  I never thought I'd hear people claim that A Day in the Life was a start of prog rock...thats ridiculous.

Many music connoisseurs consider it the start of progressive rock for a good reason. A Day in the Life was the game changer. I feel you don't understand the impact because you weren't around at the time and you don't want to give due credit either. 


 "When I was 20, I worked at a hotel in a dance orchestra, playing weddings, bar-mitzvahs, dancing, cabaret. I drove home and I was also at college at the time. Then I put on the radio (Radio Luxemburg) and I heard this music. It was terrifying. I had no idea what it was. Then it kept going. Then there was this enormous whine note of strings. Then there was this colossal piano chord. I discovered later that I'd come in half-way through Sgt. Pepper, played continuously. My life was never the same again."

- Robert Fripp


"It (Sgt Pepper) had an amazing effect on the way people saw records. I mean, people suddenly thought - oh, well you can do that? Well they've done it so of course you can do it. So I suppose it opened a door and showed everyone there's another room that you can all play around in."

- Phil Collins


"The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted." 

- Bill Buford



Edited by TheClosing - September 11 2010 at 07:24
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No............Bloody genius HugHeartRawksCoolThumbs UpClap 
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Originally posted by TheClosing TheClosing wrote:

Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Originally posted by TheClosing TheClosing wrote:

A Day in the Life = First prog. 

/thread. 

That is a horribly inaccurate comment.  So many things predate it that are more progressive.  Even the Byrds are more progressive than the Beatles!

The Byrds are more prog than A Day in the Life ? LOLGet real man. I'd love to hear what else you've got. 

ADitL is the most epic four minutes and forty-five seconds in the history of music. It is without a doubt the defining moment of prog in my mind, and I'm by no means a Beatles fanboy. 

People just want to bring the Beatles into everything these days.  I never thought I'd hear people claim that A Day in the Life was a start of prog rock...thats ridiculous.
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I'd say they slightly get too much credit....but a good chunk of it is definitely deserved.
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Originally posted by himtroy himtroy wrote:

Originally posted by TheClosing TheClosing wrote:

A Day in the Life = First prog. 

/thread. 

That is a horribly inaccurate comment.  So many things predate it that are more progressive.  Even the Byrds are more progressive than the Beatles!

The Byrds are more prog than A Day in the Life ? LOLGet real man. I'd love to hear what else you've got. 

ADitL is the most epic four minutes and forty-five seconds in the history of music. It is without a doubt the defining moment of prog in my mind, and I'm by no means a Beatles fanboy. 
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Originally posted by TheClosing TheClosing wrote:

A Day in the Life = First prog. 

/thread. 

That is a horribly inaccurate comment.  So many things predate it that are more progressive.  Even the Byrds are more progressive than the Beatles!


Edited by himtroy - September 09 2010 at 21:10
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