Free Hand - a 1* album - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 13:51

Dean wrote:

You know, the usual, ever trying to strike that balance betwix bemused irreverence and the firm right-hand of experienced authority and weathered charm, yet still managing to fail miserably on all attempts, much like yourself it would seem.

You are the only one here(or that I have ever met frankly) who can stick my nose in the mud and make me still wanna pal around with you

. Niceley done old chap! Plus, I think you may have been the first human ever to use the words "bemused & irreverence" back to back. I saw your picture with that old jalopy, nice. Is is still on the road?

Me, I am enjoying the new Mystery & Spock's Beard & Flower Kings CD and the new UK Live in Japan DVD.

Eddie Jobson gives a keyboard master clinic on that.

You have been working hard here(on PA) my friend. Lots of us appreciate your efforts and help keeping PA

the best prog resource that it is.

Stop by The Flower King Appreciation Thread sometime.

We just recruited Biff Tannen, the guy with the single coolest name here on PA, so that is pretty cool.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 13:42

Man

..........I do like The Chicken Farmer Song! Big smile

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 13:38

octopus-4 wrote:

Tubes wrote:

@Dean Are you stupid? I didn't buy Free Hand - I listened to it on Youtube, tard.

A review should be based on careful listens. Youtube's quality is not good enough for that.

4 quick points if I may:

Regarding Dean's mental state of mind. Dean is perhaps one of the very brightest here on PA and is the last person

that should receive such boorish insults.

Youtube sucks for reviews. If you can't take the time to review the music that plays it in a neutral or flat manner, you shouldn't review it.

Tubes could be related to Dr. Prog and should be given "special" handling.

If anybody get banned around here it should be for not liking The Flower Kings - The Chicken Farmer Song.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

Snow Dog

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 13:18

Dean wrote:

dennismoore wrote:

@Dean - Wassup Baby??? I kinda miss you.

Oh snap.

(As they say in the States I believe) Smile

Dean

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 12:58

dennismoore wrote:

@Dean - Wassup Baby??? I kinda miss you.

What?

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 12:41

Easy Livin wrote:

dennismoore wrote:

In the coming decades when genetic science will allow mankind to eradicate inferior traits from the genome...
We now have the subjects to eliminate the "stupidity" gene.

This may seem harsh, but this is more than a simple case of opinion, it is reviewer incompetence. Example, I am not very keen on metal or singers that scream & growl, so I would certainly trash them in a review as that stuff truly causes me discomfort. So the answer is: Don't review the stuff that you really don't like. It is pointless. If you guys still don't get my point, think of it this way:

Gentle Giant - Free Hand
YES - CTTE
ELP - Brain Salad Surgery
Pink Floyd - DSOTM

Yes, you can find people that speak negatively about these recordings(in fact here at PA) yet that would be a complete waste of time since the above recordings are genre leading masterpieces of prog.

So I do think the reviewer was at best, ill-advised to lampoon Free Hand. His time telling us about music would have been better served writing about music that he was more qualified to speak of.

Ah the old mine is not an opinion, it is stating a fact debating stance. That always convinces the doubters! Confused

Of course your assertion that those albums are "Masterpieces of prog" is an opinion. It is as valid as, but no more than, anyone else's. You don't win a debate by deriding those who would differ from your opinion.

Typical of a Scottsman to bring a shotgun when he should have offered a pint of bitters instead.

I was just having some fun about genetics, though aparently I didn't make my point about established classics as well as I should have. Permit me to try again:

Irregardless of my or other opinions, some works(sculptures/paintings/musical compositions) have been recognized

as masterpieces or at least essential works. Statue of David, Sistine Chapel, Captain Beefheart - Bat Chain Puller, etc... Its how we classify things and how us lesser folk now what to compare to or aspire to.

I think its a safe assumption that within the prog community records like DSOTM or YES-CTTE have been recognized

(not by me) as such and can be used as standards to be measured by for whatever means. Slamming them is kinda silly and pointless and not much help in this wonderful forum where we use such reviews & information to help us make

informed decisions to find new progressive music to enjoy.

@Dean - Wassup Baby??? I kinda miss you.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 12:22

Atavachron wrote:

dennismoore wrote:

You must learn to govern your passions, they will be your undoing.

Spock to McCoy, ST II

I've been waiting for somebody to call this one out. Nice to know that our PA regulars are on the ball.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

octopus-4

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 06:47

Dean wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

My bloody browser crashed when I was about to click on "Post"....

I'm getting that too - I Ctrl-A/Ctrl-C before posting now-a-days so I can Ctrl-V the post back if it bombs.

octopus-4 wrote:

Well, I think that we are on the same line about "deleting". I have interpreted the second quoted sentence as "even with my one star the rating has decreased of ONLY 0.02".

It knocked it down two spots on the all-time top 100 - when there is ony 0.05 seperating #50 from #100 on the chart small changes mean a lot, especially when you have a x10 weighting. (Doubly so when you have a x20 weighting).

octopus-4 wrote:

About youtube, I remember a polemic some months ago about the 1.star review written by AtomicCrimsonRush of a Japanese noisy Progressive electronic artist whose name I don't remember. ACR wrote it basing on youtube and with his agreement those reviews were deleted.

ACR is a Collab ... we need to be seen to be setting the standards.

I Ctrl-c/Ctrl-V too, but this time chrome was faster than me... Cry

Usually I don't look at the top 100 so I haven't spot it. Thanks for clarifying about Youtube.

I'm more than happy to leave him to the admins now. I feel like Guldbamsen. Initially I was defending him but this behaviour is not much acceptable.

You don't need my support but you have it.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:43

We passed the "ignore him and he'll calm down" stage a week ago after the first reports and complaints started arriving in the Admins' inbox. Now Admins are involved how it pans out from here on is upto Mr Tubes.

What?

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:23

Guldbamsen wrote:

I have changed my mind about this. That first review, I thought to be kinda witty, yet well-informed. Now with all of this, plus the continuation of the GG 1* reviews, it's all getting a wee bit pathetic.
I guess there are noobs out there who feel compelled to do anything to get noticed, and so he did. Let's just not reward the aftermath of bad manners and ill advised opinion by continuing to direct the spotlight at him.(I know I'm perpetuating the exact same thing as I'm advocating against by merely posting in this thread, but let's all just cool down and leave this dude until he learns to be more polite round this place. If he doesn't, then I suspect he won't be missed all that much.)

That's sound advice. Approve

Guldbamsen View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:15

I have changed my mind about this. That first review, I thought to be kinda witty, yet well-informed. Now with all of this, plus the continuation of the GG 1* reviews, it's all getting a wee bit pathetic.
I guess there are noobs out there who feel compelled to do anything to get noticed, and so he did. Let's just not reward the aftermath of bad manners and ill advised opinion by continuing to direct the spotlight at him.(I know I'm perpetuating the exact same thing as I'm advocating against by merely posting in this thread, but let's all just cool down and leave this dude until he learns to be more polite round this place. If he doesn't, then I suspect he won't be missed all that much.)

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Dean

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 05:00

octopus-4 wrote:

My bloody browser crashed when I was about to click on "Post"....

I'm getting that too - I Ctrl-A/Ctrl-C before posting now-a-days so I can Ctrl-V the post back if it bombs.

octopus-4 wrote:

Well, I think that we are on the same line about "deleting". I have interpreted the second quoted sentence as "even with my one star the rating has decreased of ONLY 0.02".

ACR is a Collab ... we need to be seen to be setting the standards.

Edited by Dean - April 10 2013 at 05:00

What?

octopus-4

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:49

Dean wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

1) You have written proper reviews which shouldn't be deleted for any reason.

Deleting reviews is rare but not unknown, in the main we delete them for their content when the reviewer is flagrantly breaking Review Guidelines and as in all things this is a judgement-call. It would be unusual to delete a review for intent as that is harder to determine, but when the review states that the purpose is to lower the average rating of what is in their subjective opinion an over-rated album then intention is far easier to determine. Especially so when the reviewer gleefully announces that he has achieved his goal.

octopus-4 wrote:

2) You are not playing rating manipulation. That's something that is done via fake accounts, usually.

Usually, yes, but writing a review (however well written... or not) for the purpose of lowering (or raising) the average rating is still rating manipulation, it is the same intent (and effect) as creating ten fake accounts. I have deleted thousands of bogus ratings and hundreds of fake accounts and I have no compunction against deleting a review that shows evidence of intent to manipulate the average rating.

Usually I will refrain from reviewing albums the average ratings for which I feel to be accurate estimates of the value I would assign to them. My rating could only raise or lower a general appraisal which I would opine to be fair, anyway. So I will primarily contribute to the critical analyses of albums that seem to be over- or under-rated. Gentle Giant's Octopus would be one of such over-rated albums.
.
.
.
And finally, after having reviewed my? er? review, I can see that I've pretty damn well knocked Octopus down for the count ? the count to eight. *Winks.

Tubes wrote:

I saw that I lowered the average rating by .02 of a star!

My bloody browser crashed when I was about to click on "Post"....

Well, I think that we are on the same line about "deleting". I have interpreted the second quoted sentence as "even with my one star the rating has decreased of ONLY 0.02".

About youtube, I remember a polemic some months ago about the 1.star review written by AtomicCrimsonRush of a Japanese noisy Progressive electronic artist whose name I don't remember. ACR wrote it basing on youtube and with his agreement those reviews were deleted.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:17

Tubes wrote:

@Dean,

...

I'll also have you know that I'll address you any which way I want, "full quoting capability" or not.

Please observe that:

Dean wrote:

... as it would be advantageous if you could learn how to quote - this is not twitter or youtoob, it's a forum with full quoting capability and practically unlimited post length

Was a piece of (friendly) advice, I'll not dictate the means in which you reply, merely point out that it would be advantageous for all if you would quote the posts you are referring to rather than just "at-ing" person - it just makes reading the posts and following the discussion considerably easier for everyone reading the thread. On Twitter and Youtoob you cannot do this because of the lack of quoting capability and the limited message length - here we are not hampered by those restrictions.

What?

Dean

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 04:10

KingCrInuYasha wrote:

Tubes wrote:

@Dean, and for the umpteenth time: I do not abuse rating manipulation. My own listening experience is that Octopus is a crap album. Okay? Go to Amazon; there are at least a handful of reviews there from GENTLE GIANT FANS, discouraging consumers from purchasing Octopus because IT SUCKS.

...

Let's see... Amazon... Octopus (2011 edition) ...

There are 68 reviews. Of those:

5 star - 47 [69%]
4 star - 14 [21%]
3 star - 3 [4%]
2 star - 2 [3%]
1 star - 2 [3%]

[please excuse the liberty of adding percentages to your numbers]

Amazon average 4.500

PA (All - 981 ratings - 4.248 average)

5 star - 548 [56%]
4 star - 315 [32%]
3 star - 90 [9%]
2 star - 21 [2%]
1 star - 7 [1%]

PA (Reviews only - 120 reviews - 4.158 average)

5 star - 54 [45%]
4 star - 41 [34%]
3 star - 19 [16%]
2 star - 5 [4%]
1 star - 1 [1%]

It does seem that numerically at least we do not regard Octopus as highly as the reviewers on Amazon, especially since, as you say, several of their lower scores are for the quality of the mastering, not for the music itself.

What?

Dean

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 03:38

octopus-4 wrote:

1) You have written proper reviews which shouldn't be deleted for any reason.

octopus-4 wrote:

2) You are not playing rating manipulation. That's something that is done via fake accounts, usually.

Usually I will refrain from reviewing albums the average ratings for which I feel to be accurate estimates of the value I would assign to them. My rating could only raise or lower a general appraisal which I would opine to be fair, anyway. So I will primarily contribute to the critical analyses of albums that seem to be over- or under-rated. Gentle Giant's Octopus would be one of such over-rated albums.
.
.
.
And finally, after having reviewed my? er? review, I can see that I've pretty damn well knocked Octopus down for the count ? the count to eight. *Winks.

Tubes wrote:

I saw that I lowered the average rating by .02 of a star!

What?

BarryGlibb View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 03:26

Hi Guys....I've been having a bit of a snooze down here in Oz......any love happening in this thread (!).

npjnpj

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 02:13

After reading the 1st review I was prepared to accept this as an honest opinion. The 2nd review is showing a pattern: I think we are dealing with an extremely eloquent troll who is using his command of words and phrasing to camouflage that. The evolved troll, perhaps?

It shows by the way this thread has been moving towards becoming an on line bar brawl. The cleverly disguised provocations by Tubes are still a little too evident.

Oh, and I used to like GG, one of my favourite bands, but I find them sounding very dated nowadays (musically, not technically or production-wise) as opposed to the other top representative bands/artists here, although I still rate both albums somewhere between 3 and 4 stars. A decade or two ago that would have been 5 stars each.

Or perhaps Dean is Tubes and he's having us on Smile

Edited by npjnpj - April 10 2013 at 02:17

Dean

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:49

Snow Dog wrote:

I actually don't mind someone from reviewing from Youtube but I know many others disagree with this. In fact..are Youtube reviews even allowed?

There is no specific rule against reviewing off Youtoob, of course the Review Guidelines were written before Youtoob was a source of whole album streams (and before the widespread availability of illegal downloads too).

We do have a guideline that would suggest such reviews could be inadequate:

[6]We suggest you listen to an album several times before writing a review. It can take a number of listens to Prog albums in particular to begin to appreciate the music.

What?

Snow Dog

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Posted: April 10 2013 at 01:38

I actually don't mind someone from reviewing from Youtube but I know many others disagree with this. In fact..are Youtube reviews even allowed?

Poll Question: Is Free Hand a 1* album?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	18	[19.15%]
No	76	[80.85%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted