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richardh

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 03:10

warp2600 wrote:

richardh wrote:

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

Each Triple Disc Set contains a Remastered Album in its Original Version, a 2nd Disc featuring a Remastered Alternative Version and the 3rd Disc is a DVD-Audio containing the album Remastered for 5.1 Surround Sound.

SW confirmed that these 2 sets will not include DVD-Audio discs but only DVD-video with DTS surround sound Cry

and a high resolution stereo mix. However, the negative feedback for this decision from fans was overwhelming, which SW forwarded to the record company and said there is a chance for including high-res surround mixes in the further releases.

BTW, I am contemplating paying some serious $$$ for the 2008 3cd Deluxe edition of BSS, which includes the SACD said to be a DSD transfer of the Rhino DVD-Audio mix.

the deluxe edition of BSS was a big disappointment to me although perhaps I don't have the equipment to appreciate it to be honest

if you don't have them already then I would recommend the deluxe editions of Pictures and Welcome Back My Friends. Both are excellent quality and Pictures has an audio of the 1970 Lyceum gig nicely cleaned up.

warp2600

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 02:18

richardh wrote:

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

SW confirmed that these 2 sets will not include DVD-Audio discs but only DVD-video with DTS surround sound Cry

Snow Dog

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Posted: May 09 2012 at 13:42

I always prefer Tarkus split into separate tracks. Like on the LP and my CD.

richardh

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Posted: May 09 2012 at 13:39

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

These ELP 3 Disc Sets have been rumoured for a while, but no we can confirm that they ARE to be released soon! Following on from his stunning work done on re-issues of classics such as: KING CRIMSON's 'In The Court Of The Crimson King', CARAVAN's 'In The Land Of Grey & Pink', JETHRO TULL's 'Aqualung' and the forthcoming 'Thick As A Brick', STEVEN WILSON set about the task of adding his subtle touch to the following two ELP classics, and in the process created 5.1 Surround Sound versions of both. Each Triple Disc Set contains a Remastered Album in its Original Version, a 2nd Disc featuring a Remastered Alternative Version and the 3rd Disc is a DVD-Audio containing the album Remastered for 5.1 Surround Sound. So, this is not just yet another run-of-the mill regurgitation job on classic ELP... this is something different... the albums are sprinkled with that magic Steven Wilson fairy dust that seems to bring them back to life in a way that music fans wants to hear them!

EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER: ELP

Classic Album Triple Disc Set: - 2 CD's and a DVD-Audio:- CD1 is the Original Album Remastered, CD2 is an "Alternate" Version of the album and the DVD-A is Steven Wilson's 5.1 Surround Mixes.
I wonder what 'Tank' and that Moog solo on the end of 'Lucky Man' are going to sound like in 5.1? - Can't wait!

Track List - Disc 1 [CD - Original Album Remastered]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Three Fates
i.)     Clotho
ii.)    Lachesis
iii.)   Atropos
05.     Tank
06.     Lucky Man

Track List - Disc 2 [CD - Alternate Version]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Promenade
05.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
06.     Rave Up
07.     Drum Solo
08.     Lucky Man
09.     Take A Pebble
10.     Knife-Edge
11.     Lucky Man
12.     Lucky Man

Track List - Disc 3 [DVD-A - 5.1 Mixes]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
05.     Rave Up
06.     Lucky Man
07.     Barbarian
08.     Take A Pebble
09.     Knife-Edge
10.     Promenade
11.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
12.     Rave Up
13.     Drum Solo
14.     Lucky Man
15.     Take A Pebble
16.     Knife-Edge
17.     Lucky Man
18.     Lucky Man

EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER: TARKUS

Classic Album Triple Disc Set: - 2 CD's and a DVD-Audio: - CD1 is the Original Album Remastered, CD2 is an "Alternate" Version of the album and the DVD-A is Steven Wilson's 5.1 Surround Mixes.
I can't wait to hear what Steven Wilson has done to this epic work!

Track List - Disc 1 [CD - Original Album Remastered]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Jeremy Bender
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Are You Ready Eddy?

Track List - Disc 2 [CD - Alternate Version]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Oh, My Father
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Unknown Ballad
08.     Mass

Track List - Disc 3 [DVD-A - 5.1 Mixes]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Jeremy Bender
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Are You Ready Eddy?
08.     Oh, My Father
09.     Unknown Ballad
10.     Mass

richardh

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Posted: April 23 2012 at 01:44

gtrdave wrote:

richardh wrote:

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast] [QUOTE=richardh]There have been a load of bad remsasterings of Brain Salad Surgery. My favourite album as well. The DVD audio is not very good either sadly.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

Are you referring to the Rhino released BSS DVD-Audio?

If so, I couldn't agree more. I received a copy of it years ago and on the first listen I knew that it was a bad representation of the original, seeing as how many of the vocals are not the 'takes' that were on the original album.

Same goes for some of the keyboard parts (KE9 1st impression part 2 to be specific...maybe others).

That DVD-A and a few others released around that time tended to give 5.1 music a bad reputation, imho.

If you're referring to another DVD-A release of BSS, I'd love to know which one and if it's better than this drinking coaster that I've got here.

As far as Steven Wilson getting involved in 5.1 mixes, I'm thinking it's a good thing. He's been a fan of the format from back when we (we being dts, where I used to work) released In Absentia and Deadwing in 5.1.

If he does justice to the original by creating complimentary surround mixes then I look forward to hearing them.

btw: first post here. I stumbled upon the forum via a search and I hope to stick around for a while and talk about one of the best music genres ever. :)

Hi there , good to have you on the forum!

Re the BSS DVD audio its not just the vocals (actually the vocal on Jersusalem is good on that version ,the only thing I like on it) but the synths and the horrible bass drum sound. Palmer had a very percussive style where the bass drum is not used in the same way that its used by say someone like Nick Mason. That DVD -A represents the band poorly in my view.

As I said earlier in the discussion I don't have a surround sound system or a high end hi -fi but I do know what I like.

KingCrInuYasha View Drop Down

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Posted: April 22 2012 at 23:22

JIF8882 wrote:

The ELP cd that I am replacing from the Shout! Factory bunch is BSS. The rest sound fine to me.

Forgive me for asking, but what problems did you have with the Shout version of Brain Salad Surgery? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to compare observations.

To me, that version of BSS sounds a tad bass heavy and Carl Palmer's drumming doesn't sound as clear as it should. Are these the same issues you have or were there other ones?

He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

gtrdave

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Posted: April 22 2012 at 21:57

richardh wrote:

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

Are you referring to the Rhino released BSS DVD-Audio?

Same goes for some of the keyboard parts (KE9 1st impression part 2 to be specific...maybe others).

That DVD-A and a few others released around that time tended to give 5.1 music a bad reputation, imho.

If you're referring to another DVD-A release of BSS, I'd love to know which one and if it's better than this drinking coaster that I've got here.

If he does justice to the original by creating complimentary surround mixes then I look forward to hearing them.

btw: first post here. I stumbled upon the forum via a search and I hope to stick around for a while and talk about one of the best music genres ever. :)

Edited by gtrdave - April 22 2012 at 21:58

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 11:32

infandous wrote:

Sorry, $850 to me is EXPENSIVE. Way more than I can afford for a sound system. Of course, as I mentioned, it looks like I don't have to anyway, so I guess that point isn't all that relevant to me anymore. However, before I lived with my girlfriend, that would have been completely out of the question. If I did have $850, I would buy a new guitar or guitar amp long before I would even think about getting a new stereo (or, better yet, pay down some debt Unhappy

)

Understood, I just picked those price points in general. One can get 5.1 for cheaper and of course one can spend much more. But if you realize this expense will be enjoyed for many years, it ends of being a few pennies per day!

How much do you eat out or how much is spent on beer & wine?

There is always a way.

Here is a great site to find super cheap deals on 5.1 receivers & speaker sets, check it often as the site focuses on daily specials.

http://www.techbargains.com/

Mods: this is not spamming, this site is the bomb for cheap b*****ds like me who have to work for a living.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

infandous

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 09:31

dennismoore wrote:

Just don't let her hide the speakers behind a potted fern of a bunch of textbooks.

Proper placement is key for the room. Chicks hate speakers in general and will bury them like a squirrel with a freshly fallen acorn. Take her out to a nice dinner and then the next afternoon you'll be able to hang the rear surrounds without interference.

Above you mentioned "the music" and "the recording" these two are always inextricably linked and are not mutually exclusive, though in modern music, some record companies & bands have intentionally engineered music to sound noisy

or bad for purpose of fashion or pop sensationalism.

I am not an audiophile or "audio snob" in the least, but my own ears have seen the power of getting a good stereo together. Today it is not expensive at all. A fine set of 5.1 speakers can be had for around $500.00 and a good enough receiver, $350.00. This kind of system will leave you breathless & speachless after you hear for example the new 5.1 mix of J. Tull Aqualung. Plus you mention your PT 5.1; Whatever people think of Steven Wilson's music, he has a separate talent for 5.1 mixing & production, that is why he is in demand so much to do other people's mixes into surround. You are in for a treat when you get your 5.1 PT running.

Most music from The Guess WHO to The WHO or Flower Kings or ELP, scales up amazing well as you get better quality speakers and equipment. I have learned(from hearing the difference) that its really an obligation to try and improve the sound quality of your stereo because there is so much to hear from a CD that we miss by just having the "basic" system that modern convention says we need.

It really doesn't take much to be blown away!

Well to me the sound quality and the musical quality are two different things entirely, always have been (which is probably why I used to enjoy bootlegs so much, despite the crappy sound most of the had). Still, there is no denying that sound quality does effect overall enjoyment of the listening experience.

Sorry, $850 to me is EXPENSIVE. Way more than I can afford for a sound system. Of course, as I mentioned, it looks like I don't have to anyway, so I guess that point isn't all that relevant to me anymore. However, before I lived with my girlfriend, that would have been completely out of the question. If I did have $850, I would buy a new guitar or guitar amp long before I would even think about getting a new stereo (or, better yet, pay down some debt Unhappy

)

JIF8882

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 00:31

The ELP cd that I am replacing from the Shout! Factory bunch is BSS. The rest sound fine to me.

J Dawg

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 15:47

sturoc wrote:

I have never gotten into the 5.1 realm. Maybe due to growing up with stereo imaging and Lps were fine. Since the music when performed onstage was usually mixed in stereo thru the mains. Studio tracks were recorded and mixed down in Stereo.
So unless the original was meant to be 5.1 it seems a bit pointless. I always listened to tracks as if I had the band in front of me onstage. 5.1 surround is abit artificial when coming from this philosophy.
As for the audio quality if a format can come as close as possible to being in the control room or as the band played live then that is the ultimate listening format.

BUT the debate here especially gets so spun off since a listener is very subjective due to their own ears, equipment and listening environs.

Hi sturoc,

Please allow me to chime in here and underscore the need for 5.1 in most of the music that we as prog fans enjoy.

First, just to clear up something. Live concerts are almost always mixed in mono. This is for many reasons, one being that sound is relatively slow and reacts very differently in a large arena vs a living room. Second, if a sound mixer used stereo at a concert then vast amounts of concert goers would not hear certain instruments as they sit off to one side or another. Sometimes a live artist will have a stereo effect on his guitar for an occasional impact moment,..

Recordings are made in stereo quite frankly because stereo provides an illusion of "more space"

Stereo: "Sound that is directed through two or more speakers so that it seems to surround the listener and to come from more than one source."

This is an illusion but a very powerful one that we take for granted in all our modern recorded music.

5.1 is the next logical step adding yet more space for the listener to take in all instruments that are being played.

Virtually all music since the 1970's has far too many tracks to fit even in stereo so 5.1 remixing from the original multitrack tapes is very effective and I have learned is a much needed exercise. I have the 5.1 mix of Elton John's Captain Fantastic(1975) and it is alarming to hear how many instruments are on that record! The 5.1 mix really gives all the original instruments more space & clarity. The experience is awesome to say the least. Not all stuff needs 5.1. Rap? No. Punk? No. But I do not have a classic or prog rock CD in my collection that would not be greatly improved by remixing from the original to 5.1. Most original recordings are 16 & 24 & 32 tracks! The engineer had to make great sacrifices to fit those within the stereo field of just 2 channels. He did it cause there was no other choice. Engineers wanted Quadrophonic sound many years ago but the industry just couldn't convince people to buy all the extra speakers, which so were MUCH more expensive then.

One bad thing about 5.1 sound:

You will fall in love with it, then you will want your entire collection remixed to 5.1. Sadly only a fraction of music exists in 5.1. Good news is more and more stuff is coming out in 5.1. New ELP! Can;t wait!!!!!!

I have the entire GENESIS collection that they remixed to 5.1 and it is beyond belief good..

Cheers!

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 15:15

infandous wrote:

Hi Fidelity is an expensive hobby. A roommate of mine in college had a very nice system, and I would play my CD's on it every chance I got. There is no question there is a big difference between what I have now and what he had then (with mine being cheap crap in comparison). But frankly, I love the music, not the recording, if that makes sense. I can hear all the instruments and nothing sounds particularly bad (well, some of the CD's are from source material that wasn't so great to begin with, but that stuff usually sounds even worse on a high end system).

Dennis, I just realized that my girlfriend (who lives with me) has a 5.1 stereo system that we keep forgetting to set up.........I'm now determined to get that thing set up and give some serious listening to the few 5.1 recordings I have (mostly Porcupine Tree, since a few of the albums were re-released with the 5.1).

Just don't let her hide the speakers behind a potted fern of a bunch of textbooks.

or bad for purpose of fashion or pop sensationalism.

It really doesn't take much to be blown away!

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

infandous

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 12:22

Hi Fidelity is an expensive hobby. A roommate of mine in college had a very nice system, and I would play my CD's on it every chance I got. There is no question there is a big difference between what I have now and what he had then (with mine being cheap crap in comparison). But frankly, I love the music, not the recording, if that makes sense. I can hear all the instruments and nothing sounds particularly bad (well, some of the CD's are from source material that wasn't so great to begin with, but that stuff usually sounds even worse on a high end system).

Dennis, I just realized that my girlfriend (who lives with me) has a 5.1 stereo system that we keep forgetting to set up.........I'm now determined to get that thing set up and give some serious listening to the few 5.1 recordings I have (mostly Porcupine Tree, since a few of the albums were re-released with the 5.1).

sturoc

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Posted: March 20 2012 at 21:22

I have never gotten into the 5.1 realm. Maybe due to growing up with stereo imaging and Lps were fine. Since the music when performed onstage was usually mixed in stereo thru the mains. Studio tracks were recorded and mixed down in Stereo.
So unless the original was meant to be 5.1 it seems a bit pointless. I always listened to tracks as if I had the band in front of me onstage. 5.1 surround is abit artificial when coming from this philosophy.
As for the audio quality if a format can come as close as possible to being in the control room or as the band played live then that is the ultimate listening format.

BUT the debate here especially gets so spun off since a listener is very subjective due to their own ears, equipment and listening environs.

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 17:33

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

richardh wrote:

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

richardh wrote:

[QUOTE=tarkusnj]< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast] [QUOTE=richardh]There have been a load of bad remsasterings of Brain Salad Surgery. My favourite album as well. The DVD audio is not very good either sadly.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

I do however like the recent deluxe edition of Welcome Back My Friends which includes nearly all of BSS played live. There is a also a 'straight from boards' live version of KE9 on the bonus disc of The Ultimate Collection whicn blows all the other versions I've heard clean out the water.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Why on earth do you imagine that I havn't heard it?

As I said its just an opinion. The DVD audio version is a watered down version of the original album. Nice version of Jersulalem because the vocals are less distorted but thats all I like about it.

Do you understand the concept of opinion/taste etc?

Yes, I can understand your opinion. Lets move on.

richardh

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 16:49

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

The ONLY great sounding STEREO version of BSS is a downmix of the BSS DVD-A disc. LIsten to that THEN talk to me. Any other stereo mix PALES in comparison...not even close.

Why on earth do you imagine that I havn't heard it?

As I said its just an opinion. The DVD audio version is a watered down version of the original album. Nice version of Jersulalem because the vocals are less distorted but thats all I like about it.

Do you understand the concept of opinion/taste etc?

Edited by richardh - March 19 2012 at 16:51

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 13:52

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

The one thing we learned from your original comment is that some people don't really care about high fidelity.

Yup, this is a "progressive" forum. Let's all break out the ipods!

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 11:21

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

Hi tarkusnj,

When the original poster slammed the Brain Salad Surgery DVD-Audio, I bit my lip so hard, drawing blood, not to say anything, as, arguing an opinion would be fruitless. However, the BSS DVD-Audio is in fact breath-taking, so I spent the weekend searching for a review I read many years ago about the actual process that gave us BSS on DVD-Audio. Sadly I guess the tech review was so old I couldn't find it. So with regret all I have is an opinion to offer. Which is, I would have no clue as to why the original poster was so negative. BSS on DVD-Audio is perhaps one of the finest high resolution 5.1 remixing projects ever done. I do have the DVD-Audio BSS dics and a decent 5.1 system, and all I can do is rant like a lunatic, singing its praises. The article went into great detail on how each original track of the multi-track was meticulously converted to digital on A/D converters costing hundreds of thousands. This work was a technical masterpiece as well as a labor of love by the re-mixing engineer. I sure wish I could find that damn review. It explains all clearly & in great detail.

Like I said, no comparison between the HI-REZ BSS DVD-A and ANY remaster of the album. Now if anyone would like to hear the downmix to stereo from the 96/24 6-channel wavs to compare to anything they currently have in stereo, let me know if you would like a sample in 44/16 cd format. Then tou will see with your ears.

The one thing we learned from your original comment is that some people don't really care about high fidelity. A preference was stated for "Welcome Back" sound quality over the original BSS album. Noboday can argue "listening experience" as everybody's ears are different, but certainly there is no argument over the sound quality and fidelity of the DVD-Audio 5.1 project vs album or prior CD release. When the poster(who you kinda slammed - that's ok, you are from New Jersey.

) expressed his preference for the live Welcome Back, it was clear that high-fidelity is not important to him. That brings up my point here:

Though most music listeners enjoy hi-fi sound and will try to upgrade when possible, some people judge the sound quality based on a whole different criteria, I can't criticise them, as it is their preference, but I can not explain it as it defies logic and what we know of sound.

It is generous of you to offer the 5.1 DVD-Audio 2.0 down mix for people to compare. I can't imagine why any ELP fan would not want the BSS 5.1 DVD-Audio experience. It is a game changer.

P.S. I did time in New Jersey, North of Edison, just under the NY State Line. I sure miss those Deli sandwiches.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

tarkusnj

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 10:44

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">

Hi tarkusnj,

Cheers!

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Posted: March 19 2012 at 09:44

Slartibartfast wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast

To the group:

There has been much heated debate as to the BSS DVD-Audio recently. I do think my esteemed colleague

Slartibartfast has set the record straight with the above post.

Hey slarti-baby,

Did you forget where the "delete post" button is?

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire