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Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 12:49
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

So something like Meshuggah or Zorn's Moonchild Trio play child's level music because the vocalists scream? That makes sense.

Your question doesn't make sense which is why nobody answered it.
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:39
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

 
Hi Equality 7-2521,
 
If you enjoy Mr. patton as an artist, that is as good as anybody enjoying any other artist, including myself.  However....
 
There are just so many things wrong with your argument.  First, millions of people can NOT sing.  Proper singing is very difficult. First is pitch.  Most people think they can sing but are shocked to learn how off key they are.  Oh and there is breath control and dynamics and projection....  Yeah man, you couldn't be more wrong here. Talent with an external instrument or a human voice is "everything" you just made my case for me. Many very wealthy & famous rock bands actually have little talent.  Talent is not emphasized in today's corporate music business. In addition, nobody needs to emulate Mr. Patton, as everyone has their own timbre in their voice.  What he does with his voice? Different story and it is quite simple to bark & talk with a mic. If he is popular? I can not judge or speak against that.  That is down to individule choice.
 
You spoke of Stravinsky.  He innovated, which should happen in music.    Keith Emerson stuck knives in his keyboard, but he still actually played his keyboard.  He is judged for what he played not his stage antics.
 
You wrote: "There are very few people who have a good enough feel for rhythm to be a stellar rapper.
You are kidding right???  All RAP is spoken(not sung) in the same basic cadence. Millions of millitary servicemen
"RAP" in a cadence as they march.  It is probably the most basic musical element that probably 98% of the Earth's population can do.  I think you misread the mega-corporate music industry.  The industry is not about promoting
hundreds or artists based on talent like in the past.  It is about MEGA-Promoting a few RAP, Alternative, Metal, etc.. bands.  Just because the band is No.1 does not mean they are any good or earned their way there.  It simply means they are the ones the industry chooses to promote at the time.  I don't think I am breaking any new ground here.
 
i dare to mention the great Tiny Tim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Tim_(musician)  He was wildly popular & famous
for making the strangest sounds with his voice.  That did not make him a great singer.
 
You like what you like that is cool.  Please do not call my arguments "silly".  The only thing remotely silly about my musical affinities is my undying enjoyment of 1969-1976 Elton John albums, oh and Three Dog Night.Wink
 
Dude!  Check out Three Dog Night singer Chuck Negron,  That dude can sing and he had talent and I can't think
of a better example to show what an actual singer is. Smile

Cheers!

DM


Well since the entire idea of singing seems to be producing noises with your vocal chords, Mike Patton is able to produce sounds that few others can. I'm not really sure what your argument is. The only thing you're saying is that you do not enjoy Patton, but you try to dress it up in verbiage to make it seem like your opinion is correct.
 
First, you need to look up the definition of singing or consult with some actual singers or vocal coaches. You will find
that your definition of singing is actually the definition of "speaking".  Oh and yes, I sit at a computer all day
and "dress up the verbiage to convince others that my opinions are correct".  There's quite a bit of $$$ in that, actually.Wink I think if you re-read all my comments, you'll see that I am talking about people that can actually sing VS people who are pop stars and are famous.  Bare Naked Ladies comes quickly to mind.
 
To be clear with you.  I have nothing against Mr. Patton.  I started my post with questions about actually "singing".

Are you suggesting that those who took screaming or rap and made them popular devices did not innovate? Or that somehow they're not actually singing?

You never addressed my question, was Tiny Tim a great singer?  He did everything with his voice that you say.
 
Second: Are you suggesting coconuts migrate???  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4_9kDO3q0w
 
Oh, yes, I did suggest and I still contend that rap is not singing.


What does cadence have to do with rap? It's about the manipulation of rhythm. You're trying to interpret everything from your narrow view of music. I don't know what the point of arguing with you is. I think you've never heard a rap artist outside of the mainstream.
 
Uh, like dude,.. ":cadence" has everything to do with rap. All rap is spoken in the same redundant cadence Instead of insulting people like calling my view of music "narrow" you might wanna lean some basic facts about sound, rhythm or singing to hep you get your point accross better.  To start:
 
 
Cheers,
 
DM
 
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:12
So something like Meshuggah or Zorn's Moonchild Trio play child's level music because the vocalists scream? That makes sense.

Your question doesn't make sense which is why nobody answered it.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:08
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

dennismoore,

Coming from the perspective of someone who once hated harsh vocals and then grew to appreciate them, I think it's important to realize that growls/harsh vocals are one component of the music and don't define an entire artist/piece. There's a difference between "noise music" and noise in music.  Add to that the fact that harsh vocals aren't just noise; because they are made by a human voice, they can have quite a bit of emotional clout.  Portraying negative emotions in music can help listeners to restrain those emotions in real life and keep them in their proper bounds and proper direction.  This happens when the listener puts himself in the place of the performer and relates to his emotions, and it's called catharsis.  Also, harsh vocals can function as a kind of percussion; think of them as melodic percussion, in that they flow like a melody but have a percussive timbre.

With regards to the debate over modern era vs. the old days, it was neither better nor worse back then than it is now.  Each age has its own joys and sorrows, conveniences and challenges.  Technological advances have, in ways, made life better, but they also have pitfalls, including the way in which they encourage individualistic thinking.  It's chronological snobbery to try and elevate one era as better than another.

Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
 
Yes, I do think you have something with the catharsis theory. I know two very educated IT professionals with very stressful work and while at one time they enjoyed more classical music-prog, they now listen to this most hateful & screaming rock that is played at a child's level musicially.  To each his own and these two people are obviously quite happy with their current choices in music.
 
You wrote about chronological snobbery.. that would be perhaps for example, arguing the 50s & 60s.  An Elvis or a BeachBoys thing.  What is happening now compared to the glory days of prog in the 1970s is a real lack of talent.  This is not my opinion. It is from a long interview with a guy called Rick Wakman who plays an instrument and has made a few records.  He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
 
I am not breaking new ground here.
 
Oh and nobody answered my question: but I guess by today's standards for singers then in fact:
 
Tiny Tim was indeed a great singer!
 
Cheers,
 
DM
 
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 17:06
Capt Fongsby is right; they've confirmed in interviews that Geddy did the rap, though I can't think of any off the top of my head besides the ones he quoted.  I actually used to think it was Alex for some reason.  They lowered the pitch of his voice on the track, and if you raise the pitch you can hear him loud and clear: 
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 11:54
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Capt Fongsby Capt Fongsby wrote:

Hm, I always thought it was common knowledge that Geddy did the rap. And why wouldn't he?


Dunno. Just always presumed it was Neil having ago. After all why shouldn't he? I f it was common knowledge I missed it. This is brand new info.


As far as I know, it is Neil doing the rap.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 10:59
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 10:51
Originally posted by sagichim sagichim wrote:

i just saw "tapfret" says in the previous page that let's admit that james labrie is horrible ,. and i must say
that he is one of my least favourite singers of all time!!
but in the same time i love him in "scenes from a memory" and "images and words" other than that i can't bear another DT album!!
anyone feels like me out there??


Quite possibly he might be for me too, other than 'non singers' like Uli Roth.  I really dislike Neal Morse and Steve Hogarth's singing but at least they are kinda sleepy so you can stop paying attention to them.  Not so with LaBrie.
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Points: 403 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 10:38
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Dunno. Just always presumed it was Neil having ago. After all why shouldn't he? I f it was common knowledge I missed it. This is brand new info.

I guess you're right, it isn't necessarily given that it had to be Geddy. But there it is.

And btw, I think it's a cool spoof and it doesn't spoil the song at all for me. Quite the opposite. Maybe it's because I don't like rap in general.

Cheers!


Edited by Capt Fongsby - February 20 2012 at 10:39
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 10:26
Originally posted by Capt Fongsby Capt Fongsby wrote:

Hm, I always thought it was common knowledge that Geddy did the rap. And why wouldn't he?


Dunno. Just always presumed it was Neil having ago. After all why shouldn't he? I f it was common knowledge I missed it. This is brand new info.
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Points: 6632 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 09:41
i just saw "tapfret" says in the previous page that let's admit that james labrie is horrible ,. and i must say
that he is one of my least favourite singers of all time!!
but in the same time i love him in "scenes from a memory" and "images and words" other than that i can't bear another DT album!!
anyone feels like me out there??
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Points: 403 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 09:07
Hm, I always thought it was common knowledge that Geddy did the rap. And why wouldn't he? It doesn't exactly take witchcraft to alter a voice.

A quick websearch corroborates it, here are a couple of examples:

from Wikipedia - Roll the Bones (song): "This rap is performed by bassist/vocalist Geddy Lee; his altered voice is achieved through a drastic lowering of pitch and adding various effects."

from a Neil Peart interview: "...we did think of trying to get a real rapper in to do it, and we even experimented with female voices, and ultimately found that that treated version of Geddy's voice was the most satisfying as creating the persona that we wanted to get across, and was also the most satisfying to listen to..."
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 07:12
^How do you know this?
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 07:08
I used to think it was Alex, but actually they just took Geddy's natural speaking voice and put a bunch of effects on it until it came out like it was on the recording.  I think there's a video on youtube somewhere of him rapping in his normal voice over the track, and he doesn't actually sound that bad, although nowhere near actual rapping technique.
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 06:38
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Originally posted by Capt Fongsby Capt Fongsby wrote:

My favourite rapper is Geddy Lee...Wink


LOL
I actually love Geddy's rap on Roll the Bones, I wish they'd perform it live instead of prerecording it, because that would be hillarious. 
Like your sig, btw

Is it Geddy? I had always presumed Neal. Is it a rap even?
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Points: 952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2012 at 06:29
Yeah, agree with infocat, Nick Barrett does it the best!
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Points: 4671 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2012 at 22:24
Originally posted by Capt Fongsby Capt Fongsby wrote:

My favourite rapper is Geddy Lee...Wink



Nick Barrett is better.
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2012 at 18:38
Originally posted by Capt Fongsby Capt Fongsby wrote:

My favourite rapper is Geddy Lee...Wink


LOL
I actually love Geddy's rap on Roll the Bones, I wish they'd perform it live instead of prerecording it, because that would be hillarious. 
Like your sig, btw
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Points: 403 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2012 at 18:07
My favourite rapper is Geddy Lee...Wink
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Points: 8622 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2012 at 15:02
Or maybe we could have a thread about the top 5 favorite vocalists instead of a pointless attempt to validate personal tastes. Why do vocal threads have to invariably turn into some manifestation of this argument? Can't we all just agree that James LaBrie is a horrible singer AND a horrible rapper?

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