DT... already a prog legend?

jampa17 wrote: Lionheart wrote: jampa17 wrote:   How in the hell can anyone who is interested in Prog Metal would take and advise from someone who plays boring music in the veins of emo-prog? I'm sorry for the Steven Wilson fans, but I don't get what's so great about him. Really, his music, his compositions and voice are boring at best, so what have that to do with Prog Metal anyway. You can't compare the so called "emotional" (depressive) songs of him with Prog Metal, because Wilson is whatever you want but not metal....   And if you feel that there's no feeling in DT songs, you should listen to Hollow Years, Through Her Eyes, Anna Lee, Hell's Kitchen, Wither, Another Day, Space Dye Vest, Wait for Sleep or Lifting Shadows off a Dream... if there's no emotion in there... I do know what is then... move on.. Thanks for nailing this on the head for me and ultimately clarifying my own thoughts that I was (apparently) confused about.  I have *never* heard anything from Dream Theatre that has stuck with me more than 5 minutes after hearing it. This is not meant to shun their *technical ability*, which has *many* people hypnotized. It's more about the ability to create something that *does* last 5 minutes after you hear it. And, if there is going to be a possible example to set, in this day and age, in the prog-metal-whateveryouarecallingit "genre", then Steven Wilson is a *very* relevant comparison. And before we start throwing the term "emotional" (depressive) term around, let's at least consider that there's more than just "mood" in the ingredients of making something "melodic" and ultimately, "memorable". But, if we are taking applications for the "legends of tomorrow", let's give it to the artists who are better at creating "memorable" songs that have the ability to stick with you. And there are many in the prog world. Giving Dream Theatre a "legendary" status is like putting the world's largest neon sign on top of an empty building. Yeah, I said it.   Yeah, you hate it... but that's not an argument.   One thing is that I feel Pink Floyd is boring, but I can't deny their status as  a total prog legends. Now, you are pretending to point the mistakes of Dream Theater according just to your own tastes. Well, you know that memorable is one of the most subjective words that exists. How you can say that something is or is not memorable, especially when you are talking about the reference of prog metal. I can assure you that if we need to put the "memorable" song ranking, nobody could agree about a subject.   For example, you really believe that the millions of fans DT have are hypnotized only by their technique? I already list you enough songs for not talking about technique but emotion and quality of songwriting. Steven Wilson is boring and he won't be remembered for influencing no body, while Dream Theater is the reference to any single prog metal band... wether you like it or not, just like I do with Pink Floyd... it doesn't matter if I don't like them, they are legends, they were revolutionary and that's it.   Steven Wilson is boring, his music and his abilities as a musician are boring. Whatever, I don't have a problem with that, but don't pretend to prog metal fans to accept that someone who fit better in alternative rock be reconigzed as a "legend" of a genre he doesn't belong to...

jampa17 wrote: Steven Wilson is boring and he won't be remembered for influencing no body, while Dream Theater is the reference to any single prog metal band... wether you like it or not   Steven Wilson is boring, his music and his abilities as a musician are boring. Whatever, I don't have a problem with that, but don't pretend to prog metal fans to accept that someone who fit better in alternative rock be reconigzed as a "legend" of a genre he doesn't belong to...

Since when did this become a 'let's bash PT' thread.

Sorry Jampa, but I will politely disagree with you. I think you will find that PT (at least early era PT) has been influential to many modern bands, especially in metal and rock genres. SW boring? Maybe on the last few albums, but I ask you to listen to Signify, TSMS and UTD and say that the man is boring.

I also find it funny that Portnoy is a huge, and I mean huge fan of both PF and PT.

Dream Theater are Prog?  Who knew...

jampa17 wrote: Lionheart wrote: Not sure if I would ever consider Dream Theatre a "prog legend" for musical reasons. Maybe for popularity reasons only. Each time I hear their music, I walk away scratching my head - and it's not because of the technicality of what they do, it's because they lack "good songs". There's a lot of "wow factor", but nothing that sticks with me after I hear it. As far as "progressive metal", I think they should take a few lessons from Steven WIlson. He writes songs that "stick". Just my 2 cents about Dream Theatre - no offense to the folks who are fans.   How in the hell can anyone who is interested in Prog Metal would take and advise from someone who plays boring music in the veins of emo-prog? I'm sorry for the Steven Wilson fans, but I don't get what's so great about him. Really, his music, his compositions and voice are boring at best, so what have that to do with Prog Metal anyway. You can't compare the so called "emotional" (depressive) songs of him with Prog Metal, because Wilson is whatever you want but not metal....   And if you feel that there's no feeling in DT songs, you should listen to Hollow Years, Through Her Eyes, Anna Lee, Hell's Kitchen, Wither, Another Day, Space Dye Vest, Wait for Sleep or Lifting Shadows off a Dream... if there's no emotion in there... I do know what is then... move on..

Wilson has certainly dabbled in metal and has a significant metal connection.  I, also, don't care for Porcupine Tree/ Wilson.  There's quite a bit of emo metal, and I actually I find there are many who like both Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree (I don't think the audiences are often that different) -- there isn't going to be the same level of disconnect as between, say, a typical  fan of Art Zoyd and a typical fan of Marillion.  The modes of expression are so different, but I'd still say that Marillion is a legend of Neo-Prog much like Art Zoyd is a legend of RIO (Henry Cow would be the better comparison for this).

But the reason why I'm posting is because of the idea of Prog legends writing catchy songs (i.e. songs that stick with you). I know you didn't say "catchy", but that's what I expect of pop legends, and a problem I have with Porcupine Tree is that I find it far too poppy/ mainstream oriented and rather emo (though I do like a lot of pop music) and lacking the experimentation and adventurous spirit that I  commonly look for in "progressive" music. It may be Prog, but not that progressive.

Actually, most of the music I like does really stick with me: the patterns and music gets into my brain and I don't look at forgettable as being a virtue. DT doesn't stick with me much either but that is partially because I'm not that familiar with the musical idiom.  Some music I listen to, love, absorb and memorize easily seems like an unmusical mess to others (what to me has clear structure sounds random to others).  So much has to do with what you're used to (experience), and how your brain is wired when it comes to the ability to interpret and digest music.


Edited by Logan - March 17 2010 at 12:05

The T wrote: ^Are you implying that you want to present Live in Budokan as evidence of some sort?

What do you mean by sticking? That you remember it? Or... you like it when you hear it, but after that the feeling disappears? For me, PT has only few wow moments, and I could compare it to PF... both are mainly art rock, not prog, and yes, prog is "cold" many times, whereas those two bands' music builds up more slowly - which I don't like much. I understand that it attaches the listener better. And of course DT's music does the same, but not so patiently or consistently. I also understand people that hate DT for some reasons (to be short, I'm not saying what are the reasons, but of course they are musical reasons), because I hate it too, though I'm a "fan". Actually I hate every band. Lionheart, do you know any good songs by DT? I mean, what are your favourites, if there are any? In some musical areas, DT are very lazy, but like it's said, there's no bands that combine for example such rhythmic "complexity" and many influences... well, basically... not many bands that combine wow moments with polished pop/rock/metal, never really falling away from that approach.


Edited by progressive - March 16 2010 at 11:46

Not sure if I would ever consider Dream Theatre a "prog legend" for musical reasons. Maybe for popularity reasons only. Each time I hear their music, I walk away scratching my head - and it's not because of the technicality of what they do, it's because they lack "good songs". There's a lot of "wow factor", but nothing that sticks with me after I hear it. As far as "progressive metal", I think they should take a few lessons from Steven WIlson. He writes songs that "stick". Just my 2 cents about Dream Theatre - no offense to the folks who are fans.

Rogerthat - I loved Dio's music at one time and I have all of his albums post ELF including the Rainbow and Sabbath albums. He definately has a very powerful voice (don't think he would ever need a megaphone at a parade). The ttrouble is that he became one dimensional to me - I used to listen to him just about every day - now I listen to him once every 6 or so months and that's invariably when I listen to BS Heaven and Hell or Rainbow - Catch the Rainbow.

Richard - I regard Deep Purple as a major foundation stone to Rock music and to Prog. I don't get why most here at PA don't see the the similarities between D P and Dream Theater - I personally believe that DP were DT's major influence - way more so than Metallica ever could be or could have been.

I agree with Cert1fied relating to this thread - some of us do find it interesting and some of us have learned things even through it - I'm still exploring the Sweet's music because of Cert1fied's earlier comments.

I concede that DT were influenced by Metallica but they were also influenced by just about everything in the Rock and Metal arena prior to them. What DT did, and do, and what I admire greatly about them is that they use so many different styles and techniques in their music. They are very, very accomplished musicians and they are comfortable with what they do in the studio and live on stage.

I disagree with any statement which opposes DT being prog because they exemplify totally PA's own definition of prog music. I disagree with anyone you tries to label them as a straight metal band because it's absolutely obvious to the ears that they are not.

I haven't counted but 8 or so studio albums down the line and they still sound as good to me as they do. Think about other acts - where were Genesis, Yes, ELP, KC, Deep Purple etc 8 studio albums down the line? Most of the classic Prog bands were steamed out long before that milestone. Plenty of accomplished and knowlegable reviewers here on PA give 5 star reviews to DT even today with their last release (BC&SL) - that's amazing. It's no mistake that DT are as controversially viewed as they are by so many - it's also no mistake that they have the fan base that they do.

Already a prog legend - to me most definately!