5 stars for prog-related?

Easy Money wrote: Logan wrote: The T wrote: Dean wrote: J-Man wrote: Why shouldn't you be able to give a prog related album a 5? Just because it's not full-fledged prog doesn't mean it can't be a masterpiece. For clarification for those too busy to look:   Essential: a masterpiece of rock music Excellent addition to any rock music collection Good, but non-essential Collectors/fans only Poor. Only for completionists   ...Prog Related and Proto Prog albums are not rated as PROG albums so you can award 5-stars to Kate Bush's "The Kick Inside" with a clear conscience.     I have to say it.  I really don't like the change as it's limited to rock music. Why not get rid of the rock criterion?  One of my favourite albums in the archives is Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain, but that is not rock, so according to the guidelines I could only rate it 3 or under. Non-rock music is not getting a fair shake. Hold on Logan, anything can be a great addition to a rock or prog collection. Personally I think having some Sun Ra or Les Baxter is an excellent addition to any collection, rock, prog or otherwise, easy 4 stars. Can a Herbie Hancock album be a prog-rock masterpioece? I think if it uses electronic amplified instruments and amped drums, yes. If it is one of his more jazz albums, 4 is as high as she goes. In other words the incredible Speak Like a Child gets 4, but Crossings gets 5, although on a jazz site they would both get 5s. That's how I see it.

It strikes me as a a kind of stone-age rock elitism. ;)

But I'm fine with rating as you say.  I'd get rid of the rock descriptor from the categories, but...

Even if one does interpret it that way (and I think many would see it differently if they cared enough to care about the descriptions), it's totally unnecessary to have the rock descriptor, and could cause confusion. Aside from jazz, we have folk, as well as more academic music etc recordings.  More important to the ratings to me than getting rid of the word progressive from the Prog-Related and Proto ratings system would be getting rid of the word rock.  I wouldn't mind if it was masterpiece of progressive music.  Right now, for instance, with the changes to PR and PP (removing the word progressive) it looks to me like it's fine to rate non-Prog rock albums 5, but if it's non-Prog and non-rock albums I should not rate it so highly (I don't know how many non-rock albums there in those categories, but as way of example) .  I expect that others would see it the same way.  That to me seems wrong and misguided.  Instead of using miles Davis or ones included in Prog categories, it would've ben better for me to use an artist/band in Proto-Prog or Prog Related (though I don't like the rock criterion for ANY category --  Aranis ain't rock really even if it's included as RIO -- I still think it should be here as it has a rock influence and CAN rock).  A lot of Electronic Prog isn't exactly rock either.  Incidentally, at least Hancock's Crossings is true Prog I would say.

Okay. since Dean was talking specifically about Prog-Related artists and Proto-Prog ones, I should use some ones from those categories, but I'd have to think of non-rock album examples from those categories by bands that had a progressive rock (of whatever variety) phase.  *Looks through PP* Hmmm.... Should be quite few Prog Related and Proto Prog ones that didn't start out doing rock -- or rock and roll. (must be quite a few folk ones), but my brain is frazzled.

Anyway, no time for research, but I would say that early jazz albums of artists included here are essential to the jazz-rock fusion aficionado, but not essential to any rock collection, progressive or otherwise.  It's not really relevant to a rock collection because, it not being rock. it would not be part of the rock collection itself, even if it wiull be relevant to the lperson who has a rock collection.


Edited by Logan - August 25 2009 at 21:54

SaltyJon wrote: No way.  Some prog-related albums are, as was previously said, better than some prog albums.

Of course, but this is not the point !  The relevant question is if some prog-related albums are as good as the best prog albums...

Logan wrote: The T wrote: Dean wrote: J-Man wrote: Why shouldn't you be able to give a prog related album a 5? Just because it's not full-fledged prog doesn't mean it can't be a masterpiece. For clarification for those too busy to look:   Essential: a masterpiece of rock music Excellent addition to any rock music collection Good, but non-essential Collectors/fans only Poor. Only for completionists   ...Prog Related and Proto Prog albums are not rated as PROG albums so you can award 5-stars to Kate Bush's "The Kick Inside" with a clear conscience.     I have to say it.  I really don't like the change as it's limited to rock music. Why not get rid of the rock criterion?  One of my favourite albums in the archives is Miles Davis' Sketches of Spain, but that is not rock, so according to the guidelines I could only rate it 3 or under. Non-rock music is not getting a fair shake.

Hold on Logan, anything can be a great addition to a rock or prog collection. Personally I think having some Sun Ra or Les Baxter is an excellent addition to any collection, rock, prog or otherwise, easy 4 stars. Can a Herbie Hancock album be a prog-rock masterpioece? I think if it uses electronic amplified instruments and amped drums, yes. If it is one of his more jazz albums, 4 is as high as she goes. In other words the incredible Speak Like a Child gets 4, but Crossings gets 5, although on a jazz site they would both get 5s. That's how I see it.

Edited by Easy Money - August 25 2009 at 21:00

Dean wrote: J-Man wrote: Why shouldn't you be able to give a prog related album a 5? Just because it's not full-fledged prog doesn't mean it can't be a masterpiece. For clarification for those too busy to look:   Essential: a masterpiece of rock music Excellent addition to any rock music collection Good, but non-essential Collectors/fans only Poor. Only for completionists   ...Prog Related and Proto Prog albums are not rated as PROG albums so you can award 5-stars to Kate Bush's "The Kick Inside" with a clear conscience.

Dean wrote: I'm in favour of having the word "Prog" removed from all star-rating definitions for all genres - if the band is Prog enough to be added to a genre, then that should be enough and all albums should be judged as pieces of music, not as to whether they are pieces of Progressive Music or not.

no I couldn't get behind that --  if it just read 'a masterpiece of music' or of 'rock music', it might seem presumptuous, plus it would diminish our identity





Edited by Atavachron - August 25 2009 at 19:31

J-Man wrote: Why shouldn't you be able to give a prog related album a 5? Just because it's not full-fledged prog doesn't mean it can't be a masterpiece.

Dean wrote: ...I'm in favour of having the word "Prog" removed from all star-rating definitions for all genres - if the band is Prog enough to be added to a genre, then that should be enough and all albums should be judged as pieces of music, not as to whether they are pieces of Progressive Music or not.

I'm in favour of having the term "Prog" removed from the site altogether. 

Why shouldn't you be able to give a prog related album a 5? Just because it's not full-fledged prog doesn't mean it can't be a masterpiece.

Absolutely not.  Even if I were to decide on a lower rating for any album because it is not prog (a term open to interpretation), there are albums in Prog Related by bands/artists that I definitely consider to be Prog (or more loosely, progressive rock).

No, prog related albums can be better than prog albums or worse then them. The rating system guides prospective buyers and people whi want to know more about an artist. When a prog-related artist has 5 stars, we're telling that person that the album is a masterpiece worthy of checking out, as deserving of that as a full-prog album.