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Peter 
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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 Posted: November 12 2008 at 08:59 |
 cacho wrote:
I quoted this post of yours but could have been any..
I'm no Prog exclusive fan either, and I do not listen to Zep, Sabbath, Purple and many others just because they're considered Prog-Related, or Heavy Prog or Proto-Prog, it's just because I love Hard Rock music and I like rocking  I consider all the bands from Heavy Prog to be also Hard Rock or even Metal, I'm sure fans of these bands don't listen to them cause they're Prog, they listen to them because they're f**king great rock bands. If you wanna hear "Prog" you'll listen to the classic stuff, Symphonic, Ecelectic, Psych, and of course you got more.
The poll question and title was just a way to find a new topic to discuss, because I was bored. And love to see different opinions and tastes, and discuss friendly. |
 No sweat, Cacho -- that was my perspective on the music (or the categorization of it, anyway).
As for the actual quality of the music, you have some great artists & albums listed there. I still love the Zep and early Deep Purple, but I actually stopped listening to Sabbath and Rainbow as a young teen, when I got into prog rock. Thus for me at least, and for about 35 years, none of those bands have never been any sort of "prog." To me, they were and are the antithesis of prog, but as I've suggested, different people have differing perspectives as to just what sort or sorts of music "prog" implies and includes. We don't need to agree, especially if we both enjoy the music in any case, and keep it civil, as you indicate.
As I said, I see music categorization as more of a subjective, personal thing (the "I know what I like" syndrome), so for me, the problem is when we try to pin it all down, put it into various mutually-exclusive boxes, and label it for everyone. I firmly believe that each of us brings his or her unique personality, history and perspective to the interpretation of art, and that therefore, in a very fundamental way, we are ALL "right."
I like to keep it simple -- I don't need a new category which includes the adjective "prog" for those old hard rock artists. I already know what they all sound like (though I guess some younger folks won't). Still, I really don't like to see long-established rock history being re-written and re-labelled here. I guess it just serves to prove the old maxim that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.
Thanks for reading and sharing your views. The interpretation of art can make for some interesting discussion!
Edited by Peter - November 12 2008 at 09:02
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: November 12 2008 at 08:07 |
Peter wrote:
 Maybe the difference in our perspectives, Atavachron, is due to the fact that I'm primarily a rock (and music in general) fan, rather than being primarily a prog fan.
I'm currently listening to my entire collection of music on random play on my Ipod. There's over thirty days (!) of music in there, and I'd only consider about 10% of it to be "prog." I think many here listen to far more prog than I do, proportionately speaking. When someone asks me what kind of music I listen to, I reply 'LOADS of stuff." I might go on to say "mostly rock," but it never occurs to me to say "prog." (Most folks don't know the term, anyway.)
Thanks for reading. Take care & goodnight! 
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I quoted this post of yours but could have been any..
I'm no Prog exclusive fan either, and I do not listen to Zep, Sabbath, Purple and many others just because they're considered Prog-Related, or Heavy Prog or Proto-Prog, it's just because I love Hard Rock music and I like rocking I consider all the bands from Heavy Prog to be also Hard Rock or even Metal, I'm sure fans of these bands don't listen to them cause they're Prog, they listen to them because they're f**king great rock bands. If you wanna hear "Prog" you'll listen to the classic stuff, Symphonic, Ecelectic, Psych, and of course you got more.
The poll question and title was just a way to find a new topic to discuss, because I was bored. And love to see different opinions and tastes, and discuss friendly.
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Guzzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 21 2004
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 3563
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Posted: November 12 2008 at 07:19 |
My vote goes to Physical Graffiti (sorry, Peter), but my heart goes out to Peter for his wise words 
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"We've got to get in to get out"
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Jozef
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Joined: June 17 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
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Points: 2204
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Posted: November 12 2008 at 00:11 |
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I'd go with "Houses of the Holy" from Led Zeppelin. "No Quarter" and "The Rain Song" are some of the most epic moments on the album.
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65684
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:39 |
I hear you Peter.. don't think of the many categories here as 'genres', more rather 'descriptives', a convenient use of language to quickly convey a style or sound to the new or intermediate fan.. as an archives and not just a fan site, it is one way we're able to take someone by the hand and help them through this enormous and wonderful music. Also, the term 'heavy prog' - like 'symphonic' or 'avant garde' - has been widely used for many years to describe the harder side of guitar-based Prog of which it turns out there was and is a ton ..and good night Peter !
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:29 |
Maybe the difference in our perspectives, Atavachron, is due to the fact that I'm primarily a rock (and music in general) fan, rather than being primarily a prog fan.
I'm currently listening to my entire collection of music on random play on my Ipod. There's over thirty days (!) of music in there, and I'd only consider about 10% of it to be "prog." I think many here listen to far more prog than I do, proportionately speaking. When someone asks me what kind of music I listen to, I reply 'LOADS of stuff." I might go on to say "mostly rock," but it never occurs to me to say "prog." (Most folks don't know the term, anyway.)
Thanks for reading. Take care & goodnight!
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:16 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ I didn't take cacho's thread to be lobbying for these artists as prog, more just a discussion of why these albums may hold a place in a prog fans heart
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Well text is always open to interpretation, of course.
How about just "hold a place in a rock fan's heart"? 
Prog is a type of rock -- rock (as we have listed in this poll) is not a type of prog. Prog is the subgenre, the lesser-known, younger cousin (or offspring) of ROCK. Those listed artists in this poll are classic rock artists, not some b*stard, lesser division of "prog." Rock includes our territory, not the other way around. To extend the geographic analogy, prog is a minor province, vassal state or fiefdom of the far vaster and older empire of Rock. Rock annexes and incorporates us -- we don't annexe rock. That is sheer over-reaching pride, wishful thinking, revisionism, and pure blindness to the reality. (On a a similar note, where I come from, in our provincial pride we often joke that "1949 is when Canada joined Newfoundland" -- but we know it is a joke.)
Prog can be filed under rock -- as it is, and always has been, in music stores.
I can't relate -- all of this revision, all of these categories are useless to me. I file Black Sabbath under 'B" with the Beatles, Billy Bragg, Bananarama and Bauhaus. I know what they all sound like, I know that they're all different, but I know they are all found in Rock/Pop in a record store.
^ I just looked under "B" in the Archives, to see if I could put a well-known "classic" prog band in my "B list" above (none were obvious enough -- I should have gone with G  ), and I was surprised to see just how many extremely diverse artists, and how many supposed categories of prog and "relations" were listed there! Yes, it simply looked like browsing under B in the Rock/Pop section of a large record store. I firmly believe the "prog" thread which supposedly binds all of this diverse music together is more thin, stretched and tenuous than ever. It looks darned close to "AllMusic" to me! 
Anyway, Atavachron & Cacho my friends, I'm not fighting -- please don't take offense!  It's just music and the classification of music we are debating, after all! I find the subject interesting from time to time, I like hanging around this forum, I like and respect most of the people, but I think too many prog fans needlessly over-analyze and over-complicate the subject.
It's just not how I think of or find music.
Edited by Peter - November 11 2008 at 23:33
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Atavachron
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65684
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 22:25 |
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^ I didn't take cacho's thread to be lobbying for these artists as prog, more just a discussion of why these albums may hold a place in a prog fans heart
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 22:12 |
Found under a ROCK -- classic hard rock, if you must have further classification.
Sorry, Cacho, but I don't really know what 'heavy prog" is. I suppose it's another one of the far too many imaginary "genres" that have been dreamed up here over the years. 
Those are hard rock albums to me, plain and simple. (Which was the music that would lead to metal, I guess, which -- at least to me -- is not progressive rock either.)
This site -- and this "category" -- revises music history, in order to justify adding non-prog artists (or so I firmly believe).
But then, what the heck is prog, anyway? That's the eternal, unresolvable question here. Clearly, it's vastly different things to different people.
Number of PA members = approximate number of definitions of "progressive" on PA.
As this poll stands, I can't vote, because I don't accept (let alone see the need for) its terms. If such an option existed, my vote would be "None of the above are prog albums -- these should stay in the Rock or Hard Rock category, where they have been for 30+ years."
Why this need to re-write accepted rock history? I don't get it -- does anyone really need to be led to classic rock artists as well known as these, through a (supposed) progressive rock site? Are the Zeppelin and Sabbath fans natural fits for Genesis and Gentle Giant? If either is the case, then we might as well just list all rock (especially 70s stuff, apparently) and be done with it -- take the guesswork and infighting around revisionist inclusions out of the equation once and for all!
After changing the site name to "Prog and Rock Archives," of course....
Ready for my " Progcetera" name yet, Max & Ron? It's yours if you want it.
According to PA, some (but more and ever more) rock is prog, some jazz is prog, some folk rock is prog, some metal is prog -- so logically, some country, punk, new wave, new age, reggae, hip hop, etc, etc, must be "prog" too!
And thus "prog" must simply mean "good" or "better than average" -- which is precisely the purely subjective, unwritten, (non) working "definition" we have arrived at here. (Or so I keep saying, curmudgeonly, independent-thinking party-pooper that I am.  )
What a hazy, flimsy, near-meaningless way to "categorize" music this "progressive" notion is! It should be used only in the privacy of your own home, if you ask me! 
Edited by Peter - November 11 2008 at 22:33
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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splyu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 06 2008
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 316
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 19:41 |
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Other: Black Sabbath - Master of Reality
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spookytooth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 06 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Status: Offline
Points: 438
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 17:55 |
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Rising.
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Would you like some Bailey's?
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 17:52 |
Alberto Muņoz wrote:
Atomic Rooster all the way!! |
huh? Don't tell me you just wasted the vote....Atomic Rooster are already in Heavy Prog!
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 17:51 |
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^yeah, The Writ really needs a good high-pitch voice.
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Alberto Muņoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
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Points: 3577
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 16:41 |
russellk wrote:
Physical Graffiti was for me the pinnacle of Led Zep, the only time they really let themselves go and sprawled over a double-disc set. Virtually every song on the album is brushed by prog, and at least half the tracks are pure prog. I've been really enjoying In My Time of Dying lately, one of the best prog blues tracks around.
But my vote goes to Sabotage, the album responsible for starting the break-up of Black Sabbath. Poor Ozzy - the band struggled to do these songs live, and tensions within the band meant that Ozzy and Iommi realy went different ways. A combination of hard rock, metal and prog, this is a superb album and a candidate for Heavy Prog if ever I saw one.
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And Sabotage also was the starter of ruining Ozzy's voice
In live concerts i hear how Ozzy have very difficult task to reach the high notes of songs like Megalomania, Killing Yourself to Live, etc and maybe that's the reason of why never play The Writ live.
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Alberto Muņoz
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Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: November 11 2008 at 16:39 |
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Atomic Rooster all the way!!
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Points: 782
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Posted: November 10 2008 at 13:51 |
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Physical Graffiti was for me the pinnacle of Led Zep, the only time they really let themselves go and sprawled over a double-disc set. Virtually every song on the album is brushed by prog, and at least half the tracks are pure prog. I've been really enjoying In My Time of Dying lately, one of the best prog blues tracks around.
But my vote goes to Sabotage, the album responsible for starting the break-up of Black Sabbath. Poor Ozzy - the band struggled to do these songs live, and tensions within the band meant that Ozzy and Iommi realy went different ways. A combination of hard rock, metal and prog, this is a superb album and a candidate for Heavy Prog if ever I saw one.
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Queen By-Tor
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Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
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Posted: November 10 2008 at 13:19 |
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Fireball for classics like The Mule and Fools
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febus
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Posted: November 10 2008 at 12:58 |
At the times, all those albums were classified in the ''Hard Rock'' category
so which one is the proggiest??? Hummm! PHYSICAL GRAFFITY is the closest i think thanks to songs like Kashmir ot In My Time Of Dying and others!!
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Jared
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Joined: May 06 2005
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Posted: November 10 2008 at 12:53 |
Raff wrote:
Great poll, Pablo ! As there is only one possible choice, I went for Fireball (yes, once again!), followed by In Rock and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. |
Actually, I think Sabotage is more progressive than any of these, although its more metal than HP, tbh...but I've gone for In Rock in this poll...which of course, contains a song especially dedicated to Micky... 
...the Flight of the Raff... 
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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The Quiet One
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Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 15745
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Posted: November 10 2008 at 12:45 |
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^thanks. I haven't heard Blue Oyster Cult, yet, so I really couldn't know.
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PR/PP albums which I consider Heavy Prog
