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Topic ClosedNecrophagist, Yay or Nay?
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Poll Question: Yes or No, simple question.
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
10 [47.62%]
11 [52.38%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted

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UMUR View Drop Down
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 16:18

I donīt give much of a damn about who influenced Death ( of course I know both Seven Churches and Painkiller), but playing jazz influenced drums in death metal is progressive IMO. And it doesnīt matter how many times itīs done and by how many bands. I still consider it progressive. And yes I consider odd time signatures progressive as well. If there are any commercial bands using them I welcome them into the archives too. I think PA should cover all prog related artists in the world and that includes bands like Necrophagist IMO. Tech/ Extreme progressive metal inclusions are obviously a very controversial subject on PA and I think it shows in the above poll ( right now itīs 50 % Nays and 50 % Yays) that itīs very hard to get anything from that genre included. Too bad people are not more open minded.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 16:03
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Well my friend it seems that you and me have totally different parametres as to what is progressive. Thatīs the great thing about this forum of course. But ask yourself this question: If you only wanted artists here that invented genres or did something new there wouldnīt be many artists on PA. Is that really what you wish for ?
 
You're asking the wrong question - you're loading it as if I'd said something I didn't actually say.
 
I didn't say that artists had to invent genres.
 
But doing something new is an essential part of Prog - otherwise it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it?
 
What are the parameters you use to describe something that's progressive?
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

Take for instance the whole progressive metal genre. Lots of Dream Theater clones wouldnīt be here even though they are widely recognized as progressive.
 
That seems reasonable - I'm not actually aware of any Dream Theater clones per se, but then I don't know every band in the archives. A band that simply apes another is not progressive.
 
However, on the flip side, if they really are progressive (as opposed to "widely regarded", which is simple straw-manning and only useful in determining a band's status in terms of introduction to the band), then they deserve a place.
 
[/QUOTE]
 
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

And laughing at Deathīs inclusion on PA ??????? They are not the most technical band by any means but their importance for the technical part of the death metal genre cannot be questioned IMO. If you only aknowledge artists who invents new genres and does something new Death would definitely fit that description.
 
Death didn't invent Death metal - I thought that was widely known.
 
What new genres and new things did Death do?
 
I reviewed 2 of their albums, and only on "Scream Bloody Gore" did I hear them playing music that sounded new. "The Sound of Perseverence" is the same, but with many, many hours of music theory and practice sessions. The form of the music and the ballpark style is no different for the techniques to my ears.


Edited by Certif1ed - October 15 2008 at 16:14
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UMUR View Drop Down
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 10:30
And laughing at Deathīs inclusion on PA ??????? They are not the most technical band by any means but their importance for the technical part of the death metal genre cannot be questioned IMO. If you only aknowledge artists who invents new genres and does something new Death would definitely fit that description.
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 10:27
Well my friend it seems that you and me have totally different parametres as to what is progressive. Thatīs the great thing about this forum of course. But ask yourself this question: If you only wanted artists here that invented genres or did something new there wouldnīt be many artists on PA. Is that really what you wish for ?
 
Take for instance the whole progressive metal genre. Lots of Dream Theater clones wouldnīt be here even though they are widely recognized as progressive.
 
 
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 07:56
Originally posted by HughesJB4 HughesJB4 wrote:

(...) But for the "are they prog or not" question, it's a nay (...)

They are Technical Death Metal, and while being one of the best in the genre IMO, they are nothing more, nothing less.
(...)

Necrophagist use a lot of the same/similar song structures for many of their songs, are not compositionally complex at all and don't have much experimentation either.

 
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

(...)  I would say that this is a Tech/Death metal band with some progressive tendencies.  (...)
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

(...) I think there are lots of elements on Epitaph that should earn them a place here. First of all because of the extreme virtuosity displayed. (...)
 
Virtuosity != Prog, but is rather more likely to be found in Prog than other genres.
 
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

There are time signature changes here and there that is not ordinary on other death metal albums
 
On the contrary, unusual time signatures are so much in vogue at the moment that they're practically de rigeur - especially in Death Metal, it seems. I listen to a LOT of up and coming bands at Garageband, and almost every other band uses time signatures and changes.
 
Plenty of pop songs also use unusual time signatures - it's just not a good criteria to judge Prog on. The definitions of Prog metal on the Internet generally are plain misleading with their lists of elements - these are not how to ascertain Prog credentials!
 
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

 and of course the beautiful classical influenced sweeping guitar solos.
 
...as used by those virtuosi Yngwie J Malmsteen, Kai Hansen, and Herman whatshisname from Dragonforce, among 1,000s of others. It's true, they're well done, but they show a distinct lack of appreciation of classical music, more an appreciation of the kudos for being able to sweep-pick like that, which is impressive, I'll grant.
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

 
Iīll admit that necrophagist is on the edge of what PA should include, but they are not much different from other tech death metal bands which are already included on this site: Martyr, Gorod and Death for instance.
 
I've never agreed with Death's inclusion - I find it laughable really.
 
Technical != Prog. Prog is about turning the music around and playing with form, introducing ideas external to the genre, and a host of other things. Technique is purely a means of expressing that, not the sole vehicle.
 
 
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

 
The list is long and I can probably find a few more in a heartbeat, but it seems that the nay sayers have a hard time differentiating between ultra fast and brutal death metal like Suffocation and ultra fast and brutal tech death metal like Necrophagist. Thereīs a difference IMO and that difference should earn at least some of the most obvious tech death metal bands a place on PA.
  
 
There - you said it. Tech Death Metal. That's exactly what I hear in Necrophagist's music. It's Death Metal, written using various techniques in order to produce the riffs that underpin standard song structures with instrumental sections that feature several tempo changes - in exactly the way Metallica laid down on "Ride The Lightning" back in 1984. It was progressive then, but 24 years is time enough for it to become an over-milked formula.
 
The techniques are nothing new - I 've heard a huge number of bands using those precise techniques over the past decade especially. That's not to belittle them - it's impressive, and I'm still practicing like a maniac to try to play that fluently, so it's not easy - but the point is, it's not new or progressive.
 
I find it relatively easy to distinguish between different heavy metal acts (although it is harder when the overall style and sound is so similar, it's not so tough when you listen to what is done with the music itself), and I have my own idea of what constitutes Prog in music (as detailed at length in my blog).
 
And it ain't about time signatures or being able to play various techniques at speed - that's just gravy to pour on the roast beef of Prog.
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 05:54
Great you brought SYL up Jake.
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 05:52

Even though I would really like to see many of the above mentioned bands here on PA I agree with the statement that SYL absolutely needs to be here and someone needs to get working on that inclusion right away. Now thatīs progressive metal/ tech metal. If you doubt that statement just take a listen to Alien.

Great

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Points: 1303 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2008 at 01:23
Strapping Young Lad deserves to be on here before any of the above mentioned bands. 
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 15:53
The more I hear Necrophagist's work the more I'm impressed by it. At first, it sounds like just basic extreme metal with nothing but noise, but the more I listen the more bits of melody and harmony come in, and some sections stick out.
 
Necrophagist and Nile are definetely progressive extreme metal bands. Whether they will ever be here remains to be seen, though I would love to see them here.

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Points: 37424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 14:17
After listening to the myspace page, while recognising that that often is not an ideal way, or sufficient, to judge a band for a Prog category, I would say that this is a Tech/Death metal band with some progressive tendencies.  That said, I'm hardly an expert on the style of music.  Interestingly, though wikipedia does not list it, Cephalic Carnage has a stronger case from what I know, but I know CC better.

Nay for me, to be honest (whichever the question is).  I'm not really a fan of death metal, and based on my too limited listening experience, and inexperience with the style, it's not really Prog (though I discern a certain prog metal relatedness).  However, some who know the music and style much better than I (which is a ton of people really) think it proggier.  I love to share my ill-informed opinions. :)
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 11:44
My question: Yey or Nay polls; Yey of Nay?

I'm gonna have to go with Nay.
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 10:14
Necrophagist is ultra brutal death metal first and foremost, but that doesnīt mean they shouldnīt be on PA IMO. I think there are lots of elements on Epitaph that should earn them a place here. First of all because of the extreme virtuosity displayed. There are time signature changes here and there that is not ordinary on other death metal albums and of course the beautiful classical influenced sweeping guitar solos. Iīll admit that necrophagist is on the edge of what PA should include, but they are not much different from other tech death metal bands which are already included on this site: Martyr, Gorod and Death for instance.
 
And Logan: Cephalic Carnage. Oh Yeah why not. Great innovative band. They are most definitely progressive IMO.
 
Not so long ago I suggested Decapitated to the metal team and sadly they turned them down. Thatīs another tech death metal band Iīm having a hard time understanding why people donīt want on PA.
 
Cryptopsy ? Anyone ?
 
The list is long and I can probably find a few more in a heartbeat, but it seems that the nay sayers have a hard time differentiating between ultra fast and brutal death metal like Suffocation and ultra fast and brutal tech death metal like Necrophagist. Thereīs a difference IMO and that difference should earn at least some of the most obvious tech death metal bands a place on PA.
 
 
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Points: 2720 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 07:10
I don't see a problem with them under prog-related.
It seems that that genre has hardly a problem here when deciding about right-wing (ultra-conservative) bands such as Rainbow and balks at something coming at it from left-field.
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 05:44
Oh crap.

Now that it's moved, it would change the meaning of the poll completely.
I already voted Nay:( but now that it's here in General Discussions, it's a Yay.
Goddamnit:\
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UMUR View Drop Down
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Points: 3073 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 05:38
Where has this discussion been moved to ? I would like to make a comment.
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 02:58
Logan's observation was correct. Moved. Stern%20Smile
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 01:35
Is virtuosity all of the sudden progressive?! Come on, guys...
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Points: 3083 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 01:11
Definitely nay. Decent, highly skilled band having very little to do with prog. But at this point we might as well throw them and Nile into prog related, and we can just change the category to "bands that don't belong here but several members enjoy."
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Points: 25210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2008 at 00:33
I doubt either band will make it in ever, but now that I think about it, I tend to think Nile does show at least a tiny bit of "prog relatedness" in their sound, but not enough to get into PA in any way or form though.
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Hey, if Necrophagist gets in then Nile should be allowed in too!!!
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