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Posted: January 29 2008 at 09:33

Are you all talking about New Prog?

Edited by Aeternus - January 29 2008 at 09:34

Dean

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 05:00

Thanks for your input, and for raising this issue Oceansizzle - this kind of discussion is most welcome and feel free to continue to add to the debate

I clearly see Alternative Prog, (or Alt-Prog or Prog-Alt) as an emergent subgenre that covers a broad range of bands that have clear musical links to Alternative Rock. Even though it is possible to argue progressive traces of this back into the previous century, I still think as a Prog genre it is in its infancy and is not fully formed or established with bands coming towards it from different directions, musical backgrounds and heritages - much like Neo-Prog was back in 1978-83. When we get bands that specifically set out to be Alt-prog from the outset I think we can say the subgenre is established - though how you determine that without the benefit of hindsight is a mystery

For the present I think we can best serve these bands by putting them into subs that best match the Prog component of their music (eg Eclectic, Heavy, Xover, Neo, Math-Rock, Psyche or Prog Related) rather than accumulate them into a new sub that fits the Alt component of the music (which is likely to be just as diverse) with little or no regard to their specific Prog credentials (after all this is a Prog site

As has been previously mentioned, in the Xover Team we have identified Alt Prog as being an style of music that fits the spirit of our definition, if not the exact wording. We are looking to change the definition to include it specifically, but this will require a bit more Collab discussion before it can be proposed and finally changed.

The latest Xover addition is an Alt-Prog band from Italy called LA GUERRA DELLE FORMICHE that is a crossover of "Shoe-gazing" Indie Rock and Prog.

As to Oceansize - I don't know their music so will have to listen to them before commenting.

What?

Raff

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 04:34

This is something we Collabs can do - post a link to this thread in the Psych/Space team thread, and ask their opinion on a possible move of the two bands. They will of course have to be evaluated by the Xover team before a decision is reached.

Don't worry at all about speaking too soon. I do it all the time! LOL

After all, as the saying goes, we live and learn... And I think your thread raises an interesting issue that's worth discussing in the main forum.

Oceansizzle View Drop Down

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:45

I believe I spoke to soon. The more I look into the Crossover description, the artists involved, and the difference between it and Prog-related, the more I understand. Thanks for clarifying! I'm still fairly new here.

That still doesn't answer the Oceansize question though. Maybe I should ask one of the space rock collabs. I actually think Oceansize and Amplifier would fit quite well in Crossover if there is no Alt-prog group.

Raff

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:25

Oceansizzle wrote:

Alright, I can understand both of your arguments for dredg being in Crossover Prog. I guess my main point was about Oceansize and Amplifier in the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. I consider dredg and Oceansize to be very similar, and very often they are spoken of in the same sentence. Maybe an easier solution would be to move Oceansize and Amplifier into the Crossover genre. Although I dont know, it just seems like Crossover is a collection of bands that don't fit anywhere else...

I am sorry, but I have to very strongly disagree with your last statement. This is what used to be said about Art Rock when it was 'whole', and this was one of the main reasons why we decided to have the three-way split you can see now. The Xover team are very knowledgeable about music, and have it VERY clear in their minds what the requirements for admission are. If a band or artist suggested for inclusion in Xover don't have the necessary connection to mainstream music, they are refused.

That said, you can't expect that each and every one of the bands in any given sub be identical to each other in terms of sound. Yes, Genesis and ELP are in Symphonic, yet I would defy anyone to say that they sound the same. As to moving any band from any sub to another, both teams must be in agreement, and it has happened that one team have refused to have a band moved elsewhere.

Oceansizzle View Drop Down

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:18

Alright, I can understand both of your arguments for dredg being in Crossover Prog. I guess my main point was about Oceansize and Amplifier in the Psychedelic/Space Rock genre. I consider dredg and Oceansize to be very similar, and very often they are spoken of in the same sentence. Maybe an easier solution would be to move Oceansize and Amplifier into the Crossover genre. Although I dont know, it just seems like Crossover is a collection of bands that don't fit anywhere else...

Raff

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:08

As an 'unofficial' member of the Xover Team LOL

, I can tell you that Micky and Dean have been discussing the possibility for some time now. Indeed, many of the acts that get suggested for inclusion in Xover are nowadays more in the Alt-Prog mould, and some often risk falling through the cracks because they don't really correspond to what Xover was initially meant to be. All I can tell you at this stage is, watch this space Wink

...

Ricochet

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 03:06

I'd push again the idea that Alternative Rock influences or even defines some Progressive Rock modern bands. Therefore, an Alternative Prog band could be present in many genres, even Heavy and Eclectic. So a full sub-genre would be a bit too pushed move.

A reminder, upon reading the impression of "dredg not fitting next to Oldfield, Moody and Supertramp" is that many genres up here (and especially Heavy, Eclectic or Crossover, might I say) don't focus on a single line of music and artists. So dredg could stick along anyone, if they fit the nature/definition/whatever of Crossover Prog.

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:56

Oceansizzle wrote:

dredg is in the Crossover prog genre, and that makes sense in a way...but seeing El Cielo next to Supertramp, Mike Oldfield, and The Moody Blues on the crossover prog main page just doesn't seem right.

they actually fit together quite well if the intention of Crossover Prog is understood as a guide to artists that were not adverse to digestable, even 'commercial' music

there would only be a need for a 'Alternative Prog' if the purpose of genres such as Crossover Prog are neglected, and since our Crossover Team is top notch, that seems unlikely Wink

Oceansizzle View Drop Down

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Posted: January 29 2008 at 02:48

Does anybody else think that there should be a sub-genre entitled Alternative Prog? (or something similar)

I dont know how many bands would qualify for it, but the main ones that come to mind are Oceansize, dredg, and Amplifier. Right now Oceansize and Amplifier are stuck in the psychedelic/space rock genre, and while at times they have psychedelic moments, they seem out of place. dredg is in the Crossover prog genre, and that makes sense in a way...but seeing El Cielo next to Supertramp, Mike Oldfield, and The Moody Blues on the crossover prog main page just doesn't seem right.

Other bands that I think might fit this category are Aereogramme, Youthmovies, Muse, Pure Reason Revolution, etc. I'm sure there are plenty more that I'm forgetting or don't know about...

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Does there need to be more bands like this to make it an official sub-genre? Or is it ok with these bands in seperate categories?