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mystic fred View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 14:11
^^Philistines! Scoff ye may, and be happy in your cosy unadventurous world!Tongue
 
...except Tony - firmly sitting on the fence i see! come in - the water's lovelyWink
 


Edited by mystic fred - January 19 2007 at 14:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 13:56
Just one thing to bear in mind, whilst Mike might be a sceptic he has no stake in whether this stuff is real or not. He doesnt care what you spend your money on, so he is neutral not biased or prejudice. He might just be able to save you some money...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 13:51
^Well, they appear to be very happy fooling themselves, who are we to take away their (imaginary) pleasure? Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 13:43
^ sorry, but cables don't burn in. That's a definitive myth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 13:04
Originally posted by The-Bullet The-Bullet wrote:

Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

try out these cables and interconnects for a couple of months, then tell me your opinion

    You see, this is the problem. These cable manufacturers and suppliers don't claim that there stuff make subtle changes that can only be perceived after months of listening. They claim that the effects are obvious and immediately apparent !, with all the "deeper bass, pronounced clarity, richer soundstage" bs that accompanies these claims .So, why can't these super-cables be identified in db tests ? I'll say it again - anecdotal or subjective opinions are not evidence.
 
 
Obviously some improvements are immediate, but i was being fair in suggesting others would be apparent after some time, i.e. the cables would need burning in and time would be spent auditioning a substantial part of your CD and vinyl collection, and these things can't be rushed! Some of my albums sound a little strange to the way i was used to hearing them (much more transparent and open, busy passages appear more ordered, sometimes some instruments appear to jump out at you, and some passages of music even seem faster)  , so i'm still discovering things, as it were, only after a few weeks. Another thing i noticed i can listen to my system at mid to high volume all day now, before i would get tired and at worst get a headache. The amps get hot and the sound seems to get even better when they've been on for a long time.
 
All i was suggesting is that you try upgrading your cables and hear it for yourself, but you'll need to give it a fair trial - the Kimber cable manufacturers offer a 60 day return trial on their products, so they can't be fairer than that, can they? Smile
 
BTW - we had a thread on "burning in" of all electrical products, especially cables and speakers, some time ago, and the general concensus was that burning in exists and is understood by audiophiles and manufacturers as an important part of understanding how new components behave .
 
 
 


Edited by mystic fred - January 19 2007 at 13:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 09:48
Originally posted by The-Bullet The-Bullet wrote:

    So point me to the DB tests that show this then Olly


Audiophiles don't believe in these tests. Have a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiophile

This is a very balanced article which tries to be fairly neutral ... it just describes audiophiles' and objectivists' beliefs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 09:44
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ careful - this analogy might work both ways. I would say that hi-fi is as much luxury as is caviar ... and both are hardly essential.Wink
 
i don't know - i can go all day without food but if i was forced to miss my daily dose of Prog i would feel very uncomfortable!!LOL
 
 


Not talking about prog here, but audiophile hi-fi.Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 09:42
    So point me to the DB tests that show this then Olly

"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 09:36
The result is heard instantly, as long as your system is good enough and as long as you use your ears.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 09:31
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

try out these cables and interconnects for a couple of months, then tell me your opinion

    You see, this is the problem. These cable manufacturers and suppliers don't claim that there stuff make subtle changes that can only be perceived after months of listening. They claim that the effects are obvious and immediately apparent !, with all the "deeper bass, pronounced clarity, richer soundstage" bs that accompanies these claims .So, why can't these super-cables be identified in db tests ? I'll say it again - anecdotal or subjective opinions are not evidence.

"Why say it cannot be done.....they'd be better doing pop songs?"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 08:33
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ careful - this analogy might work both ways. I would say that hi-fi is as much luxury as is caviar ... and both are hardly essential.Wink
 
i don't know - i can go all day without food but if i was forced to miss my daily dose of Prog i would feel very uncomfortable!!LOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 08:26
^ careful - this analogy might work both ways. I would say that hi-fi is as much luxury as is caviar ... and both are hardly essential.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 08:21
i guess food could make a good analogy here - i was brought up on fish and chips, roast dinners and peas and carrots, but if i tasted caviar or a very expensive gourmet meal costing £1000 i would probably hate it! it takes years to develop a good palate and to appreciate these things, something i could do in time if embarked on, so if i heard a hi fi system costing £100,000 with £2000 interconnects it would sound very nice but i  guess many of its benefits would be lost on me - unless i had been steadily building and appreciating each nuance and upgrade over the years...?
 
BTW Mike i would rather listen to speakers than headphones any day, i have a pair of £150 Sennheisers i hardly ever use as my speakers sound much clearer, and then room acoustics come into play - yer just can't beat 'em!Smile 
 


Edited by mystic fred - January 19 2007 at 08:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 07:51
^ I'm just saying that if in an impartial blind listening test people can't tell them apart, the difference cannot be *that* big.Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 07:49

Yes, there are good solutions at 2000€. But it's naive to believe that you can't do better. Only talking numeric source, a big CD source (let's say 5000€) is much much more transparent, dynamic, etc...than a musical 1000€ player.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 07:13
Originally posted by mystic fred mystic fred wrote:

listening tests that are carried out in a hifi store listening room, in ideal conditions, are a far cry from hearing the same system in your own home - different room acoustics, furniture, noisy ring main, interference etc. all change the sound. I've never heard of a manufacturer refusing blind comparison tests, as they use these as a routine part of their research as for many other products such as chocolate and perfume (i've done some myself), but they only really reveal superficial differences as much is revealed over a much longer listening period at home.Smile


Sorry, but the longer you're listening to your own amp in your own home environment, the more your own perception of how good (or bad) it sounds becomes biased. You simply get used to that sound, and especially when your gear was very, very expensive you eventually think that it *must* sound better than smaller gear.

Olivier: Of course big systems reveal more details than small systems. That applies to headphones as well as hi-fi systems - with a really small amp and small speakers you simply have a lower resolution of detail. But I'm sure that with a good "mid-fi" system for €2000 (amp, CD, speakers) you can hear every instrument that you would hear with a real hi-fi system (with both systems having same power/speaker dimensions). Mind you: I'm not saying that they sound the same! I'm sure that the hi-fi system would sound better - I just don't think that a system that costs 10x as much as the mid-fi system sounds 10x better. More like 10% better IMO.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 04:50

As i already told many times, the magic of sound and hifi is the capacity to transmit emotion on one hand and simply the performance which ENABLES TO HEAR INSTRUMENTS (NOT DETAILS) that you won't hear with pororer equipment. That's the experience i do these days with my Sugden amp and my HD600, i hear things i've never heard on records i listened to hundred of times!!! It proves the limitations of my speakers compared to my headphones.

If you miss part of the music, it's obvious that you miss part of the magic and emotion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 03:34
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by mystical fred mystical fred wrote:


Impartial blind testing, or A/B/C/D comparison,  is not really a good way to judge sound and music - it is art ...

That's ridiculous. The art is in the music, not in the sound ... sound is just an acoustic or electronic signal.

Impartial blind testing is the *only* way to verify the claims made by the manufacturers (and users) of audiophile equipment. Of course it fails, and of course (knowing that it will fail) they refuse these tests.

The "art", the enjoyment, the "metaphysical" qualities of the music are created in our minds, not in the gear.
 
...agreed, Mike, but our listening experience can be enhanced by hearing it at the quality as it was intended in the recording studio - that is almost impossible to achieve in the home, but you can try to get close as possible. Many albums i have heard in the 70's on poor equipment have had a new lease of life when heard to its full advantage nowadays, and even become favourites.
 
listening tests that are carried out in a hifi store listening room, in ideal conditions, are a far cry from hearing the same system in your own home - different room acoustics, furniture, noisy ring main, interference etc. all change the sound. I've never heard of a manufacturer refusing blind comparison tests, as they use these as a routine part of their research as for many other products such as chocolate and perfume (i've done some myself), but they only really reveal superficial differences as much is revealed over a much longer listening period at home.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 03:05
Originally posted by mystical fred mystical fred wrote:


Impartial blind testing, or A/B/C/D comparison,  is not really a good way to judge sound and music - it is art ...

That's ridiculous. The art is in the music, not in the sound ... sound is just an acoustic or electronic signal.

Impartial blind testing is the *only* way to verify the claims made by the manufacturers (and users) of audiophile equipment. Of course it fails, and of course (knowing that it will fail) they refuse these tests.

The "art", the enjoyment, the "metaphysical" qualities of the music are created in our minds, not in the gear.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2007 at 01:56
Originally posted by The-Bullet The-Bullet wrote:

    Anecdotal and subjective experiences do not count as evidence. From the research I've done (including my own audio tests) it seems that subjective opinion on this matter is split.However, there is still no scientific DB tests that show there is any detectable difference. Why don't these "high end" cable companies submit there wares to impartial double blind testing ?.They claim that the difference there cables make is enourmous, yet any tests that have been done show that the difference is imperceptable. BTW many people also feel better after taking sugar pills in medical tests...
 
 
 i am not a qualified technician/reviewer, i am only an ordinary music lover with an open mind keen on  getting the best out of my system,  and i have heard many claims, fads and fashions over the years, many ridiculous, though cable technology is not "high end", it is based on plain common sense and works on even the most simple equipment, most improvements claimed made by manufacturers of "expensive" cables involve cancelling various forms of interference and impedance which ruins the sound of good equipment - even a portable DAB radio!  Impartial blind testing, or A/B/C/D comparison,  is not really a good way to judge sound and music - it is art, after all, and such tests depend on people's personal sound preferences and emotional reaction to the music, the only way to do it is set up the mains and signal cables in your home for a few weeks with your favourite music and a comfy chair and be amazed at the advance in quality of sound immediately, then everything needs time to settle in (or "burn in"), your ear soon gets accustomed to the improved sound so then you might be looking for more improvements - if not you can send the whole lot back for a refund, though the improvements are so obvious i don't think anybody would.  the differences are obvious, though not enormous, but easily justify the cost of the basic lower priced cables and connectors (£50 - 100 for one interconnect, mains cable or pair of speaker leads)  - power supply (new sockets) and room acoustics have an effect on sound quality so free improvements there  are a worthwhile starting point.  As for high-end stuff, i've hardly ever heard any so i can only comment on what i've actually heard with my own budget system.
 
try out these cables and interconnects for a couple of months, then tell me your opinion!Wink
 
 
 


Edited by mystic fred - January 19 2007 at 02:38
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