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What to think of "subject(ive)" and "object(ive)"?
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:


Lewian, can you maybe tell another English word for the German "sachlich" than "objective"?

Good question... not sure whether any English word matches this properly in the way I think you have in mind. The direct translation "factual" works in some situations but not in others. "Bleiben Sie sachlich!" " Try to stick to the facts!" (Probably in most circumstances in English one wouldn't use an adjective but say things in different ways.)
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Actually, I don't find the notion of objectivity to be particularly good, as it surely has some traditions, while I think all knowledge 
is based on some specific values and product of some specific choices, so it's not impartial.

Which I actually find to be very good, but even better to be reflective and as a researcher open about it.
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Points: 15555 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2023 at 10:45

Lewian, can you maybe tell another English word for the German "sachlich" than "objective"?
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Anyway, "inter-subjectivity" is surely a useful concept.
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

 
 I acknowledge that solipsism is ultimately correct, but it is also ultimately unhelpful. How can one make sense of the world if one believes that the world doesn't exist? Therefore, one can assert that an objective reality does exist and that it can be examined by the senses, by scientific instruments, and by mathematics. In particular, mathematics can reveal the intrinsic orderliness of reality beyond the limitations of empiricism and manifest the objective nature of reality.

To say that you don't have objective access to the world is not the same as saying/believing that the world doesn't exist. I for sure believe that the world exists. The only thing I say is that it is ultimately inaccessible how our perceptions are related to how it "really" is. I'm also fine saying that for many tasks we just experience that it works well to treat the world as if it were just like we perceive it (or scientific theories etc.). And maybe it is. We can't know. But we don't need this knowledge to live.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Actually, marxism makes me think that the philosophical concept of subjective, if defined as "relating to an object as it exists in the mind, 
as opposed to the thing as it exists in reality (the thing in itself) ", is quite problematic because does all the human acting and much of its 
result have to be considered as a part of the "subjective" or "objective" reality.

Okay, maybe it's reasonnable enough, just complicated, as it's a matter of different perspectives including the one involving time.
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

...
 one can assert that an objective reality does exist and that it can be examined by the senses, by scientific instruments, and by mathematics.
...
Hi,

An "objective"  reality can not possibly exist, since it means that many people have to agree to it, and have a say on it, as to how they "arrived" at that concussion!

It's even more difficult, when this "reality" is a part of the furthest internal/psychic and occult studies for many years, and delivered in many forms ... and some so different as to make us go ... wow ... without this internal "objective reality", just about everything will be some science or other that indeed can be learned by instruments, and mathematics, but, not likely, "senses" since those are an internal form of seeing and learning and thus understanding.

It is strange/weird to me, that we are discussing this "objective something" as a reality, when its existence is almost all "internal" and that is something that is a by-product of one's own internal studies and investigations.


Edited by moshkito - August 04 2023 at 21:49
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

As I see it, "subjective" refers to a point of view of an individual, whereas "objective" is independent of any point of view. This doesn't mean that objectivity doesn't exist, unless you are a proponent of solipsism, which I'm not. An example from Quantum Mechanics would be that the Many Worlds Interpretation is an objective notion of reality, whereas a subjective perspective of the many worlds is the Copenhagen Interpretation. I use this example to illustrate that the difference between subjective and objective is not about the difference between opinion and fact. It should be noted that one can remove one's perspective from facts about the world, so that people can make objective statements even though they may seem to be solipsistically locked into a subjective perspective.

But what do you make of the dilemma that there is simply no way for human beings to go beyond their point of view, at least not if that includes a societal perspective? The point is not that objectivity does not exist, but rather that humans can't achieve it.

Unless you say that "objectivity" only refers to the nature of a statement, namely statements that refer to a reality that is supposed to be independent of any point of view, even if there isn't any chance of verifying such statements independently of any point of view.
 
I acknowledge that solipsism is ultimately correct, but it is also ultimately unhelpful. How can one make sense of the world if one believes that the world doesn't exist? Therefore, one can assert that an objective reality does exist and that it can be examined by the senses, by scientific instruments, and by mathematics. In particular, mathematics can reveal the intrinsic orderliness of reality beyond the limitations of empiricism and manifest the objective nature of reality.
 
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

But then there are also social constructionists who focus far more on how human construction is shaped by society rather than on any "freedom of construction", and they push a very emancipatory, progressive, ultimately left wing agenda.

I'm glad of hearing this, and it has also been my impression.
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Actually, marxism makes me think that the philosophical concept of subjective, if defined as "relating to an object as it exists in the mind, 
as opposed to the thing as it exists in reality (the thing in itself) ", is quite problematic because does all the human acting and much of its 
result have to be considered as a part of the "subjective" or "objective" reality.
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Marxism has around the whole world also been an amazingly strong power in constructing the social existence, whatever to think
about it - which is even more interesting in the subjective vs objective context.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Marx wrote "social existence determines consciousness", ...

I'd say, as a very political thinker he was much more dialectic than that, meaning, surely the other way around as well - 
which is actually very interesting in the subjective vs objective context. 


Edited by David_D - August 03 2023 at 14:02
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Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

It's funny how people get lost in definition coming from thinkers that don't talk about their own being but the views of other thinkers. You learn in school not how to think but how people are thinking.

Hi,

School? 

That ain't the Internet. ..... we own the schools here, and no one pays attention to anything in school anymore, even in college, at least the first 4 years! But who the heck would enjoy getting it getting piled higher and deeper?

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Marx wrote "social existence determines consciousness", which can easily be seen as anti-constructivist, and I think that there is a good number of scientifically minded "objectivist" socialists who wouldn't appreciate constructivism at all. But then there are also social constructionists who focus far more on how human construction is shaped by society rather than on any "freedom of construction", and they push a very emancipatory, progressive, ultimately left wing agenda.


Edited by Lewian - August 03 2023 at 04:41
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Note also that a view can be "problematic and dangerous" even if it is correct. Maybe the world and the ways of human beings are just dangerous and problematic, and the hope that any concept of objectivity could cure this is mistaken? I am with the constructivists on objectivity and many things, but I do recognise that their take comes with problems and issues (as any other).
Do you see some good potentials in social constructionism/constructivism if seen from the left wing perspective?

I'm not sure what you mean by "left wing perspective". 

What if I say, from the perspective of "socialism"?
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Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

As I see it, "subjective" refers to a point of view of an individual, whereas "objective" is independent of any point of view. This doesn't mean that objectivity doesn't exist, unless you are a proponent of solipsism, which I'm not. An example from Quantum Mechanics would be that the Many Worlds Interpretation is an objective notion of reality, whereas a subjective perspective of the many worlds is the Copenhagen Interpretation. I use this example to illustrate that the difference between subjective and objective is not about the difference between opinion and fact. It should be noted that one can remove one's perspective from facts about the world, so that people can make objective statements even though they may seem to be solipsistically locked into a subjective perspective.

But what do you make of the dilemma that there is simply no way for human beings to go beyond their point of view, at least not if that includes a societal perspective? The point is not that objectivity does not exist, but rather that humans can't achieve it.

Unless you say that "objectivity" only refers to the nature of a statement, namely statements that refer to a reality that is supposed to be independent of any point of view, even if there isn't any chance of verifying such statements independently of any point of view.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Note also that a view can be "problematic and dangerous" even if it is correct. Maybe the world and the ways of human beings are just dangerous and problematic, and the hope that any concept of objectivity could cure this is mistaken? I am with the constructivists on objectivity and many things, but I do recognise that their take comes with problems and issues (as any other).

Do you see some good potentials in social constructionism/constructivism if seen from the left wing perspective?

I'm not sure what you mean by "left wing perspective". The left wing hosts all kinds of democrats, direct and representative, anarchists, and authoritarians. There are best friends and arch enemies of constructivism. There are all kinds of perspectives on the left wing. 

(The question makes sense for me anyway as I came from the left wing to the constructivists, but these days I'd probably rather see the left wing from a constructivist perspective than the other way round.)
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Note also that a view can be "problematic and dangerous" even if it is correct. Maybe the world and the ways of human beings are just dangerous and problematic, and the hope that any concept of objectivity could cure this is mistaken? I am with the constructivists on objectivity and many things, but I do recognise that their take comes with problems and issues (as any other).

Do you see some good potentials in social constructionism/constructivism if seen from the left wing perspective?
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As I see it, "subjective" refers to a point of view of an individual, whereas "objective" is independent of any point of view. This doesn't mean that objectivity doesn't exist, unless you are a proponent of solipsism, which I'm not. An example from Quantum Mechanics would be that the Many Worlds Interpretation is an objective notion of reality, whereas a subjective perspective of the many worlds is the Copenhagen Interpretation. I use this example to illustrate that the difference between subjective and objective is not about the difference between opinion and fact. It should be noted that one can remove one's perspective from facts about the world, so that people can make objective statements even though they may seem to be solipsistically locked into a subjective perspective.
 



Edited by I prophesy disaster - August 02 2023 at 07:38
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Actually, I don't find the notion of objectivity to be particularly good, as it surely has some traditions, while I think all knowledge 
is based on some specific values and product of some specific choices, so it's not impartial. I think what in German is called 
"Sachlichkeit", which requires some specific methods, is probably a better one.






Edited by David_D - August 02 2023 at 06:12
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