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RYM's top all time Jazz Fusion
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Poll Question: Pick your top three!
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
6 [6.19%]
9 [9.28%]
13 [13.40%]
1 [1.03%]
4 [4.12%]
1 [1.03%]
5 [5.15%]
3 [3.09%]
0 [0.00%]
10 [10.31%]
1 [1.03%]
3 [3.09%]
2 [2.06%]
3 [3.09%]
4 [4.12%]
1 [1.03%]
1 [1.03%]
15 [15.46%]
1 [1.03%]
0 [0.00%]
5 [5.15%]
2 [2.06%]
0 [0.00%]
4 [4.12%]
3 [3.09%]
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Grumpy is a very prolific writer; maybe it's just him who mentions Holdsworth all the time? Tongue
Yes it's mostly me. Thank you for noticing, Lewian.

I did a search and since last autumn (which is the five pages that shows), Holdsworth in namechecked (positively, several times) by:

Gerinski, Manuel, Psychedelic Paul, BrufordFreak, Richardh, Jaketejas, DutchProg, Steve Wyzard, Rick1, Mellotron Storm, Yam Yam, MortSahlFan, Dick Heath, Necrotica, JazzFusionGuy, HolyMoly, disquesplusqueréel, mathman0806, altered_beast, David_D, Jacob Schoolcraft, Atavachron, Hrychu, Nogbad_The_Bad, AFlowerKingCrimson, Negoba, Mirakaze, Cristi, graysnk2, telefunk, wiz_d_kidd & of course Grumpyprogfan and Lewian + not nessecarely as "fans" by Logan, Balfriede and myself. Edit: also Sean Trane


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 18 2023 at 09:23
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Grumpy is a very prolific writer; maybe it's just him who mentions Holdsworth all the time? Tongue
Yes it's mostly me. Thank you for noticing, Lewian.
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I'm surprised to see Bruno Pernadas among such great musicians Shocked 

My votes went to:
Bruno Pernadas - Crocodiles
Casiopea - Casiopea
Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters

Three of the albums I must have mentioned the most back when I listed everything here.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.
Holdsworth, Brand X, and Dregs popular? Holdsworth's solo material is always viewed negatively here. You can't deny that Holdsworth was the most innovative guitar player ever, and his music is melodic.

Yes they represent a sort of fusion/playing that's particularly popular among proggers. As in they've got a greater status among progfans than elsehwere.

-I'm not denying anything, but I often (but not always) don't enjoy how Holdsworth plays - and the space he takes up in the music while doing it. He is one of the most popular fusion guitarists on these forums and is mentioned all the time, that's for sure. Plus everyone seem to think he saves those later Soft Machine albums - except for me who thinks he ruins them.

Grumpy is a very prolific writer; maybe it's just him who mentions Holdsworth all the time? Tongue
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^The best thing about these forums are the differing views of music. I don't agree that Holdsworth is mentioned all the time in these forums. In fact, just the opposite.

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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.
Holdsworth, Brand X, and Dregs popular? Holdsworth's solo material is always viewed negatively here. You can't deny that Holdsworth was the most innovative guitar player ever, and his music is melodic.

Yes they represent a sort of fusion/playing that's particularly popular among proggers. As in they've got a greater status among progfans than elsehwere.

-I'm not denying anything, but I often (but not always) don't enjoy how Holdsworth plays - and the space he takes up in the music while doing it. He is one of the most popular fusion guitarists on these forums and is mentioned all the time, that's for sure. Plus everyone seem to think he saves those later Soft Machine albums - except for me who thinks he ruins them.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 18 2023 at 06:47
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.
Holdsworth, Brand X, and Dregs popular? Holdsworth's solo material is always viewed negatively here. You can't deny that Holdsworth was the most innovative guitar player ever, and his music is melodic. Not that it matters, but both Zappa and Van Halen mentioned Allan as a brilliant guitar player. Yes, some of his solos are fast, but I would not call that showing off. That is just his style. He plays the guitar like it's a saxophone. Are Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, and Miles Davis showing off when they play fast? Does that leave you cold?

I agree with you on McLaughlin. His songs, for me, are difficult to enjoy. Sport fusion at top speed, yet it currently has the most votes in this poll? Obviously, PA folk love some sport fusion.

Anyway, here is one of Allan's ballads. No sport solo.





Edited by Grumpyprogfan - May 18 2023 at 06:14
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Jazz/Sport Fusion.
Never heard of this, I imagine it's a derogatory term. Can you give an example? Ermm
It's an attemnt to give this "hey everyone look at me, I can play A LOT of notes really fast!" fusion subgenre a proper name. I know that many, and proggers in particular disagree*, but to me it's the sound of all flash, no substance. RTF's early albums never gave me that feeling.
-
*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.

ok, thanks for explaining. Smile

this is a beef I especially have with Al Di Meola. that man just can't play slowly


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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

So do Stuart Nicholson, the author of the very well-researched and thorough Jazz-Rock: A History (1998).

Btw, this book is a great read about the history of the American Jazz Rock/Fusion.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Jazz/Sport Fusion.
Never heard of this, I imagine it's a derogatory term. Can you give an example? Ermm
It's an attemnt to give this "hey everyone look at me, I can play A LOT of notes really fast!" fusion subgenre a proper name. I know that many, and proggers in particular disagree*, but to me it's the sound of all flash, no substance. RTF's early albums never gave me that feeling.
-
*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.

ok, thanks for explaining. Smile
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Jazz/Sport Fusion.

Never heard of this, I imagine it's a derogatory term. Can you give an example? Ermm
It's an attemnt to give this "hey everyone look at me, I can play A LOT of notes really fast!" fusion subgenre a proper name. I know that many, and proggers in particular disagree*, but to me it's the sound of all flash, no substance. RTF's early albums never gave me that feeling.
-
*many of the typically popular fusion albums, performers/bands among proggers like Spectrum, Elegant Gypsy & Mahavishnu/McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Brand X, Dixie Dregs... leaves me cold more often than not.




Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 18 2023 at 00:02
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Jazz/Sport Fusion.

Never heard of this, I imagine it's a derogatory term. Can you give an example? Ermm
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Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

From the list... The Grand Wazoo and Birds of Fire.

No Pat Metheny, Allan Holdsworth, Weather Report, Jean-Luc Ponty, Dixie Dregs, Bruford, Brand X? No modern fusion like Antoine Fafard, Dewa Budjana, Panzerballett, Hiromi?

RYM does not express my tastes.


And I'm the opposite. I find it remarkable how much I love from the list. The first two Weather Report albums do rank amongst my favourites, by the way. Choosing just three is almost ridiculous as I love the vast majority of those.
Except for loving the same two early Weather Report as Logan does I don't miss any of those. In regards to modern fusion there's two entries from the 2000's in this poll, while only one (Hiromi) on PA top 25 fusion.
-
Btw: I also count Chick Corea - Return to Forever as Return to Forever's actual debut. It's my favorite of theirs as well. Romantic Warrior however represent everything I dislike about a certain kind of later 1970's fusion. Jazz/Sport Fusion.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 17 2023 at 23:30
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I guess, there're different opinions about it, as RYM, PA and Wikipedia consider it to be RtF's first album. Smile

So do Stuart Nicholson, the author of the very well-researched and thorough Jazz-Rock: A History (1998).

This will always be one of those things where some people/publications/sites will retroactively consider the album to be the first RTF album, and others will stick to the official, literal artist attribution. I'm sure there will never be a consensus on how to consider it, despite the fact that, at the time of its release, it WAS attributed to Chick Corea. It's kind of like Roine Stolt's album The Flower King. Could it be considered the first TFK album? Sure. Is it, technically? No. But, whatever.

Incidentally, a copy of that book you just referenced is sitting on desk right in front of me (I have yet to crack it open). I got it from a used book store in North Hollywood.
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I guess, there're different opinions about it, as RYM, PA and Wikipedia consider it to be RtF's first album. Smile

So do Stuart Nicholson, the author of the very well-researched and thorough Jazz-Rock: A History (1998).
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Points: 11699 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 14:32
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

In my book, the same group being represented more than once, simply shows the lack of care for the "artist".
Correct. It's a chart. A chart doesn't care about anything.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - May 17 2023 at 22:38
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I guess, there're different opinions about it, as RYM, PA and Wikipedia consider it to be RtF's first album. Smile

So do Stuart Nicholson, the author of the very well-researched and thorough Jazz-Rock: A History (1998).
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Since I mentioned and voted for my top three already, here is a top ten from the list:

Herbie Hancock - Crossings
Soft machine - Third
Eddie Henderson - Realization,
Miles Davis - Big Fun
Herbie Hancoock Sextant
Bruno Pernadas - Those Who Throw Objects...
Sun Ra - Lanquidity
Miles Davis - In a Silent Way
Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi
Frank Zappa - Hot Rats

And here are ten albums that I listed four years ago as favourites of mine in a JRF topic at PA (one album per artist).

Janko Nilovic - Rythmes Contemporains
Herbie Hancock - Crossings
Miles Davis - Big Fun
Mandingo - The Primeval Rhythm of Life
Eddie Henderson - Realisation
Julian Priester - Love, Love
Embryo - Embryo's Rache
Perigeo - Genealogia
Soft Machine - Third
Placebo - Ball of Eyes

These days I would want throw in Bruno Pernadas' Those Who Throw... from 2016 and another modern one that I love that also is from 2016 (such a great year), Niechęć's self-titled. The kid looks right out of Village of the Damned.



I think there's so much great jazz post-rock fusion.

Edited by Logan - May 17 2023 at 14:32
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

(Not a single RTF album...interesting. There are a few I'd knock out of there for Romantic Warrior.)
Chick Corea - Return to Forever, 1972

that one is a Chick Corea album, not a Return to Forever album. RtF named themselves after this album

I guess, there're different opinions about it, as RYM, PA and Wikipedia consider it to be RtF's first album. Smile

If so, that's incorrect. If this is the album in question, it's by Chick Corea, and the title is Return to Forever. It's not "an album by" Return to Forever.


This is the first album attributed to Return to Forever as a group.





Edited by verslibre - May 17 2023 at 14:16
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