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You've answered your own question Iain, by referring to progressive pop which was not what the album's Please Please Me, With The Beatles (or Meet The Beatles as it was called in the US), A Hard Day's Night and Help! had to offer. A No. 1 album is also not prerequisite for influencing pop culture.
Manifold results allude to the good as well as bad aspects of drugs, depending on one's personal view. Your's has been duly noted.
Perhaps those albums you cite would not meet our current requirements as 'progressive pop' but the inception of the self-contained rock band, writing their own hits and playing their own instruments was unprecedented and not merely progressive but revolutionary for 1963. Being popular is the only requirement for influencing pop culture.
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Posted: May 20 2017 at 09:08
You've answered your own question Iain, by referring to progressive pop which was not what the album's Please Please Me, With The Beatles (or Meet The Beatles as it was called in the US), A Hard Day's Night and Help! had to offer. A No. 1 album is also not prerequisite for influencing pop culture.
Manifold results allude to the good as well as bad aspects of drugs, depending on one's personal view. Your's has been duly noted.
Edited by SteveG - May 20 2017 at 09:21
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Here's another question. Did the Beatles create or merely reflect the changing social landscape of the 1960's ? Can it be argued that there was a general anti-establishment reaction by some members of the general public which had been going on since the Beat years which resulted in a change in the musical (and political) landscape ? Did the Beatles actually create this - no - or reflect it - yes ?
In which case, the Beatles' influence on progressive pop is also minimised.
Hmm. As Dylan remarked in song prior to the Beatle's influence on pop culture, "The times they were a-changing." And so, they were. The Beatles, especially Lennon, were heavily influenced by Dylan's introspective and observational lyrics. Dylan even turned on the Beatles to pot. Another influence with manifold results.
The Beatles were heavily influential on pop culture after that in a zeitgeist induced back and forth with their generation. One need not start up the train before opening up the throttle. And I believe that applies to the Beatles. No artists exist in a vacuum, even the Beatles.
Would a Dylan song released in 1964 be considered 'prior to the Beatles influence on progressive pop' if their 1963 debut album charted at No 1 in most first world countries? I agree that Lennon in particular was influenced by the hitherto unprecedented literary and 'adult' orientation of Dylan's lyrics but it's called 'dope' for a reason and anyone stuck beside a 'transcendentalist who inhales' at a party will testify that the 'manifold results' require acres of goodwill and patience
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Posted: May 20 2017 at 07:23
Davesax1965 wrote:
Here's another question. Did the Beatles create or merely reflect the changing social landscape of the 1960's ? Can it be argued that there was a general anti-establishment reaction by some members of the general public which had been going on since the Beat years which resulted in a change in the musical (and political) landscape ? Did the Beatles actually create this - no - or reflect it - yes ?
In which case, the Beatles' influence on progressive pop is also minimised.
Hmm. As Dylan remarked in song prior to the Beatle's influence on pop culture, "The times they were a-changing." And so, they were. The Beatles, especially Lennon, were heavily influenced by Dylan's introspective and observational lyrics. Dylan even turned on the Beatles to pot. Another influence with manifold results.
The Beatles were heavily influential on pop culture after that in a zeitgeist induced back and forth with their generation. One need not start up the train before opening up the throttle. And I believe that applies to the Beatles. No artists exist in a vacuum, even the Beatles.
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Posted: May 20 2017 at 03:09
Let's make the distinction between "the Beatles' influence on (progressive) pop and the Beatles' influence on prog rock. Two different subjects.
Here's another question. Did the Beatles create or merely reflect the changing social landscape of the 1960's ? Can it be argued that there was a general anti-establishment reaction by some members of the general public which had been going on since the Beat years which resulted in a change in the musical (and political) landscape ? Did the Beatles actually create this - no - or reflect it - yes ?
In which case, the Beatles' influence on progressive pop is also minimised.
For those who are even tenuously involved with the music industry in whatever capacity and would profess to NOT being influenced by the Beatles, it might just be time for a career change?
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Posted: May 19 2017 at 22:25
SteveG wrote:
The Beatles' influence on Prog? Overstated, understated or just about right?
Some believe that Prog would never have existed if not for the Beatles, while other's claim no effect on artists like early Genesis. "What does Peter Gabriel have to do with John Lennon?" I once heard someone say. So what's the deal?
I think it's underrated. I can name many early prog rock acts that weren't influenced by The Beach Boys or Frank Zappa. But how many early prog acts can you seriously say that were not influenced by one aspect of The Beatles music from any album from Rubber Soul to Abbey Road?
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Posted: April 04 2017 at 09:46
I agree on all counts. While not an accurate example, my old Dad use to say that "familiarity breeds imitation". If not actually imitators, the proximity of Hendrix to the Beatles cannot be underestimated as to influence, and to that mystical thing called zeitgeist.
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Posted: April 04 2017 at 08:37
The other thing to consider is Revolver is also a product of location, and I wonder how it would have turned-out if The Beatles had got their way and recorded it in a more modern American studio as they wished. I suspect it would have been considerably different as a result, not just because transposing themselves into a completely different cultural environment would have brought a completely different vibe to the whole thing (much like Bowie's Young Americans is a uniquely "Philadelphia meets NY" album and his Berlin-trillogy are uniquely "Berlin" albums), but also because being forced to use Abbey Road (again) meant that necessity became the mother of invention.
Abbey Road was essentially part of EMI's corporate electronics industry establishment and for that was un-hip and somewhat antiquated by comparison to US studios that were purpose-built for specific record labels and music genres. Basically it operated like a branch of the civil service, similar to the BBC and General Post Office. The studio innovations that the Beatles and George Martin pioneered were born out of having to use Abbey Road's older equipment.
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Posted: April 04 2017 at 05:11
Absolutely. And I think proximity and location played a major role in how that influence was felt, I cannot imagine an album like Are You Experienced coming out had Hendrix stayed in New York (or moved to SF).
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Posted: April 04 2017 at 04:07
We can never quantify influence, so the purpose of a post like this is hopefully to spark off a discussion. One caveat I must put forward was Hendrix heavily relying on the Fabs "psychedelic" studio manipulation. I cannot imagine an album like Are You Experienced coming out without Revolver predating it.
Edited by SteveG - April 04 2017 at 04:07
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Posted: April 04 2017 at 02:41
There's more to prog than Genesis and Gabriel, and what differentiates them from most other nascent Prog bands is they were not London-based or part of the London scene; while the others either came from London or gravitated to it, Genesis were happy to orbit the home counties. Any influence the Beatles had on Genesis came purely from records and media appearances, and that kind of influence affected every musician who has ever formed a band regardless of the genre of music they play. The Beatles influence on Prog is much deeper than just the music and public image.
Despite being forever tagged as a Liverpool band the Beatles were for most of their musical career, in fact London-based and pretty much the centre of the London scene during the late 60s. And the importance of Swinging London on Psychedelic Pop & Rock and the embryonic Progressive Rock cannot be over-stated - San Francisco is the spiritual home of the Psychedelic movement and the alternative/underground scene but (Zappa aside, as he was lone odd-ball [even] in the SF scene) having plateaued very quickly as the soundtrack to the hippy movement, musically it was pretty staid and static, the creativity that initially vitalised American Psych found a comfortable far-out groove and stuck with it - being progressive in that scene referred to everything but music. Whereas over the pond, it was London's quirky, hodge-podge slant on psychedelia that continued what SF started, it provided the impetus that powered a progression in music that radiated out in a myriad of different directions as a consequence, and that gave birth to Prog Rock.
While the Beatles and the up and coming Psych and Prog bands were not quite in the same London social groups per se, the Fab Four were a peripheral but key part of the social scenes that grew up around the progressive underground and there was a degree of mutually reflective kudos in that association.
[Some people disagree when I say this, but] The Jimi Hendrix Experience were a London band (with an American front-man), and what they did was born out of that 'not-quite-counter-culture-but-close' London scene, and they too were part of that same nebulous underground scene that mixed mainstream rock/pop royalty (various members of the Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds etc.,) with the psych-folk/pop fringe-ers (Bolan & Donovan, and to some extent Bowie), the hard-rockers (Zepp, Sabbath, Purple & Heap), all the Canterbury & Ladbroke Grove bands, together with the likes of pre-Crimson Fripp, Pink Floyd, the Gentle Giants before they became Gentle Giant, Yes, The Nice=>ELP and VdGG etc.
Just how influential the Fab Four were on that cannot be measured in cover songs and musical development alone, nor can it be seen in innovation and approach to song writing and music production because that is too interleaved and too ingrained into the fabric of what the Beatles created from being an integral, though perhaps passive, part of the London underground and what those underground bands created also from that association. Whether this was direct inspiration or askance influence, they fed on each other.
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Posted: April 03 2017 at 09:24
Their influence cannot be overstated. They were (and kinda still are) the biggest band in the world so everything they did got amplified like a force multiplier. There were others, of course, as noted by previous posts here but no one was going to change the world so completely as The Fab Four could and did.
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Posted: February 13 2017 at 13:38
Well, I have to say that Gabriel joined the Beatles' bandwagon a long time after his tenure with Genesis. The idea of Foxtrot era Genesis doing a cover of Day Tripper is quite beyond the pale and bloody horrible to even think about.
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Posted: February 12 2017 at 16:41
Tillerman88 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Some believe that Prog would never have existed if not for the Beatles, while other's claim no effect on artists like early Genesis. "What does Peter Gabriel have to do with John Lennon?" I once heard someone say. So what's the deal?
Sounds such as those 'koo koo.. koo koo....' sung by Lennon on 'I am The Walrus' are sure a key element Gabriel might have to do with him
You mean like this?
Or this?
Nah, Peter Gabriel has nothing to do with John Lennon. Never even listened to his music. They sound nothing alike.
Edited by The Dark Elf - February 12 2017 at 16:45
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Posted: February 12 2017 at 12:42
SteveG wrote:
Some believe that Prog would never have existed if not for the Beatles, while other's claim no effect on artists like early Genesis. "What does Peter Gabriel have to do with John Lennon?" I once heard someone say. So what's the deal?
Sounds such as those 'koo koo.. koo koo....' sung by Lennon on 'I am The Walrus' are sure a key element Gabriel might have to do with him
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Posted: February 12 2017 at 12:20
It's probably overstated like most things in prog....but I think Fripp himself has said he was influenced by what The Beatles did to combine different elements of music to create a new sound in many of their later tracks.
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Posted: February 11 2017 at 21:24
On the beginning of their career, not much. Towards the end, when the psychedelic movement was turning into what we now call prog, they were a big part of it, not only for the music, but also for the significance of the Beatles name on people's tendencies.
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