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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:56
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation").

Well, fair enough. I think that whatever your position is (you only describe it in a really nebulous way), if most of the contributions in this thread were off-topic to you then your position is so hard to grasp, and the bandwidth of permissible opinion so small that a discussion would be pointless.

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore.
Now you've misrepresented me in a grotesque way, so I guess we're even Smile
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...).
You are contradicting yourself here. You begin by suggesting that in our society capitalism and democracy are two clearly separate issues, but then you go on to describe the corruption that I have been talking about. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:38
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

(^ That's why I added a second "^" to the start of my post)

^^ Oh, I do agree that it is germane to the discussion, but when it leads to an oversimplification (and binary logic is generally that: an oversimplification) I don't think it adds much to a discussion.
And other than the "stolen election" delusion (and what it leads to in some states, like voter suppression), I think another major flaw of US democracy is much more systemic, and that is the non-separation between executive powers and judicial powers: when judges are not ruling according to the law but according to an ideology, then I think there is something profoundly wrong with that system.

There are many different democratic systems: the US one is very different from the British one, which is very different from the French one which is very different from the Dutch one, and so on... They all have their flaws, they are all fallible, politicians are often corruptible, policies - especially in the capitalist democracies - have been too much determined by economic interests (and especially those of stakeholders and big companies) instead of the common good and the society as a whole, but I still think it is preferable over a tyranny.
I agree, but voting in a democracy is still a key to societal outcomes. In the US, the major oil companies work as a covert co-operative similar to a monopoly. Unless all voters to put a certain party in power in both the executive and legislative branches of government, they will be never be a congressional inquiry to determine if that is lawful. Again, another example without bias.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:30
(^ That's why I added a second "^" to the start of my post)

^^ Oh, I do agree that it is germane to the discussion (like the subject of "capitalism" is too), but when it leads to an oversimplification (and binary logic is generally that: an oversimplification) I don't think it adds much to a discussion.
And other than the "stolen election" delusion (and what it leads to in some states, like voter suppression), I think another major flaw of US democracy is much more systemic, and that is the non-separation between executive powers and judicial powers: when judges are not ruling according to the law but according to an ideology, then I think there is something profoundly wrong with that system.

More generally: There are many different democratic systems: the US one is very different from the British one, which is very different from the French one which is very different from the Dutch one, and so on... They all have their flaws, they are all fallible, politicians are often corruptible, policies - especially in the capitalist democracies - have been too much determined by economic interests (and especially those of stakeholders and big companies) instead of the common good and the society as a whole, but I still think it is preferable over a tyranny.


Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 06:35

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:21
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation").
And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore.
I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...).

I'm not sure who you're addressing but quoting previous posts does help with that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 06:10
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:


OK, let's try to get things back on track, because I think this thread has deviated into other things that I did not intend. The discussion about conspiracy theories is interesting but deserves its own thread, and the Biden/Trump discussion is not what this thread is about either. And please, let's try to avoid draw ing everything into binary thought (black/white, good/bad...); the world is more complex than that.




Conspiracy theories are absolutely germane to this discussion. If democracy is teetering in the US, and I believe it is, it is greatly because of the conspiracy theories expounded by Trump and his lackeys' that the 2020 election was stolen. The deluded followers of Trump still believe this lie even though 67 court cases have been dismissed regarding Trump's insistence that it was stolen. And they were deluded enough to storm the US capitol  building and violently try to stop the election process from taking place. And Trump still spouts this lie to this very day. If democracy fails in the US it will be mostly due to conspiracy theories and the deluded people that believe in them. If this isn't an argument for teetering democracy, then I don't know is.


Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 06:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 05:43
^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation").
And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore.
I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...).



Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 05:44

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 05:31
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

The relevance was the possibility of the rich in political power. It was a conspiracy theory that can't be proven. Is that what's bothering you?

How was/is that a conspiracy theory? I think that most people would agree that there is that kind of corruption in politics. Some would limit it to the opposite camp (e.g. hardcore Trump supporters would only see the corruption with the democrats, fanatical Biden supporters would see it only with Trump etc.), but I think that many would agree that the corruption is systemic. 
God good man, what do you think a conspiracy theory is? It's not a generalized statement like "the system is corrupt' but any assumed individual corrupt act not under the consideration of a investigate and policing entity.  For those that think that democracy doesn't work because of inherent flaws in the system (which may or may not pertain to you personally) I say that's BS. To use another example, those that moan the overturning of Roe v. Wade have only themselves to blame for voting in a Republican President who had the power to appoint ultra conservative Supreme Court justices, instead of sticking to a pro choice candidate. I'm not advocating for or against abortion, this only an example of democracy not working for those that moan because those voters not did not stick to their party line and grabbed the new shiny object. Democracy can only work if citizens know the the power that they hold and vote properly.

Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 05:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 05:21
Yes. Let’s leave it at that - if you want me to elaborate , I will, but otherwise I’ll leave the thread.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 05:08
^ Is this supposed to be a reply to my post? Confused

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 04:39
^ To summarise my point: I don't agree with your premise that Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right (or more specifically: Donald Trump). In my opinion the real problem is that democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime for at least a century or longer, where the "rulers" realised long ago that it is more effective to let most people believe that they are in charge through a democratic process than to openly suppress them. And to keep them "entertained" (as in: busy, distracted, occupied) the system includes cleverly crafted and/or groomed "threats".

So depending on where you land regarding this hypothesis, my posts were either on-topic or irrelevant. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 03:15

OK, let's try to get things back on track, because I think this thread has deviated into other things that I did not intend. The discussion about conspiracy theories is interesting but deserves its own thread, and the Biden/Trump discussion is not what this thread is about either. And please, let's try to avoid draw ing everything into binary thought (black/white, good/bad...); the world is more complex than that.

This thread, I hoped it to be about actual - and factual - strategies, dysfunctioning, abuse and other acts to - deliberately or undeliberately - undermine democracy. Existing behaviour. That's what the article I linked to in the OP is about, as some other of my posts. So let's try to get back to that and leave the Biden/Trump discussion or the consiracy topic to other threads. The "teetering" of the democracies is not just a thing in the USA...

So I'm quoting the OP (because I think some have not even read the article that I linked to...):
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

That is the headline of a rather thorough report/analysis in today's The Guardian about how extremist Republicans are trying to undermine democratic institutions and elections in Arizona, as just an example of a more widespread practice in the USA nowadays.
But it could be coming from within too, when a government - the French, i.c. - is undermining democratic procedures by abusing an old constitutional article - the infamous article 49.3 - to sideline parliamentary vote, knowing they wouldn't have a majority and despite the fact that a majority of the population is against those measures pushed through without vote. This has been done 23 times in less than two years.

Clearly, countries of "the West" don't need the be invaded anymore by aggressive other countries to see their democracies undermined and/or threatened. They're doing it from within. Where are we going? What can we do?

And two other posts
Quote Another country where things are not going at their best is the UK: "‘This place is utterly dysfunctional’: MPs on why they’re leaving parliament"
Quote I stumbled upon a book review of Barbara McQuade's Attack From Within - How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America in which she is apparently also proposing some solutions (for the more or less specific US context).


And for a more global assessment you could consult the annual report of Idea International: The Global State of Democracy 2023... From the executive summary:
Quote The global state of democracy in 2023 is complex, fluid and unequal. Across every region of the world, democracy has continued to contract, with declines in at least one indicator of democratic performance in half of the countries covered in the Report. Measured in terms of the areas of improvement and decline within each country, 2022 was the sixth consecutive year in which more countries experienced net declines in democratic processes than net improvements. This six-year pattern of decline is the longest of this kind since our records began in 1975. In short, democracy is still in trouble, stagnant at best, and declining in many places.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 02:34
^ Of course it might be valid to say "Biden is the lesser evil", but that implies that he's still "evil", as in "not good". The only way to think of Biden as "good" in terms of democracy is that we don't get to vote for any option that would actually be good. But "the system" blames that on us, since anyone could technically run for president. The fact that media is controlled by and large by the same corporations which finance the uniparty makes it impossible for any "independent" candidate to gain enough momentum to become a threat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 02:13
^ Largely true.   
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 02:04
^ Sure, Trump is evil, so Biden must be good. All is well as long as Trump is not president. I find that way of thinking incredibly naive. You're willing to ignore everything that disqualifies Biden as a good person, let alone good leader.

While "douche vs turd" still holds, maybe a better analogy in this case is "good cop / bad cop". The US have a history of alternating between "good" presidents (usually democratic) and "bad" presidents (usually republican). It's a brilliant concept, keeping people busy fighting each other, while the same banks, the same corporations are financing both parties. Just like arms dealers profit from wars regardless of which side wins, the "rulers" profit from the political circus regardless of which person currently carries the title of president.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 01:31
Of course it's built into the system but there's more to it than that, and though it has little to do with Trump per se, I'd really rather not see an extremist traitor in charge of my country.   Sorry.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 01:11
^ I guess you think that democracy is "teetering" because of Trump, while I think the problem is built into "the system". Of course the discussion never ends, but at least the two of us will go around in circles. I don't mind, and if you think this thread is "torturous" you can always just walk away. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 01:06
Yeah, whatever, but I doubt "we can end the discussion" because the discussion never ends.   Having world-views that are too different seems to be the only thing keeping this torturous thread going.   

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 00:58
^ All high-ranking politicians are sociopaths ... that simply follows from the job profile. If you think that one can become the president of the United States and still have a conscience or a moral compass, we can end the discussion, since our world-views are simply too different.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 00:46
^ That's fine--- it's a simple choice between an obvious sociopath and someone who believes in democracy and knows government.   Not a hard decision to make.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2024 at 00:36
^ ok, Biden is a saint. I rest my case, we have at least one fanatical Biden supporter. Big smile
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