"Democracy is Teetering"

suitkees wrote: ^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation").

Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 06:35

suitkees wrote: OK, let's try to get things back on track, because I think this thread has deviated into other things that I did not intend. The discussion about conspiracy theories is interesting but deserves its own thread, and the Biden/Trump discussion is not what this thread is about either. And please, let's try to avoid draw ing everything into binary thought (black/white, good/bad...); the world is more complex than that.

Conspiracy theories are absolutely germane to this discussion. If democracy is teetering in the US, and I believe it is, it is greatly because of the conspiracy theories expounded by Trump and his lackeys' that the 2020 election was stolen. The deluded followers of Trump still believe this lie even though 67 court cases have been dismissed regarding Trump's insistence that it was stolen. And they were deluded enough to storm the US capitol  building and violently try to stop the election process from taking place. And Trump still spouts this lie to this very day. If democracy fails in the US it will be mostly due to conspiracy theories and the deluded people that believe in them. If this isn't an argument for teetering democracy, then I don't know is.

Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 06:12

MikeEnRegalia wrote: SteveG wrote: The relevance was the possibility of the rich in political power. It was a conspiracy theory that can't be proven. Is that what's bothering you? How was/is that a conspiracy theory? I think that most people would agree that there is that kind of corruption in politics. Some would limit it to the opposite camp (e.g. hardcore Trump supporters would only see the corruption with the democrats, fanatical Biden supporters would see it only with Trump etc.), but I think that many would agree that the corruption is systemic.

God good man, what do you think a conspiracy theory is? It's not a generalized statement like "the system is corrupt' but any assumed individual corrupt act not under the consideration of a investigate and policing entity.  For those that think that democracy doesn't work because of inherent flaws in the system (which may or may not pertain to you personally) I say that's BS. To use another example, those that moan the overturning of Roe v. Wade have only themselves to blame for voting in a Republican President who had the power to appoint ultra conservative Supreme Court justices, instead of sticking to a pro choice candidate. I'm not advocating for or against abortion, this only an example of democracy not working for those that moan because those voters not did not stick to their party line and grabbed the new shiny object. Democracy can only work if citizens know the the power that they hold and vote properly.

Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 05:56

^ Is this supposed to be a reply to my post?

^ Largely true.   

Of course it's built into the system but there's more to it than that, and though it has little to do with Trump per se, I'd really rather not see an extremist traitor in charge of my country.   Sorry.

Yeah, whatever, but I doubt "we can end the discussion" because the discussion never ends.   Having world-views that are too different seems to be the only thing keeping this torturous thread going.   

^ That's fine--- it's a simple choice between an obvious sociopath and someone who believes in democracy and knows government.   Not a hard decision to make.