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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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Well, fair enough. I think that whatever your position is (you only describe it in a really nebulous way), if most of the contributions in this thread were off-topic to you then your position is so hard to grasp, and the bandwidth of permissible opinion so small that a discussion would be pointless.
Now you've misrepresented me in a grotesque way, so I guess we're even ![]()
You are contradicting yourself here. You begin by suggesting that in our society capitalism and democracy are two clearly separate issues, but then you go on to describe the corruption that I have been talking about. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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(^ That's why I added a second "^" to the start of my post) ^^ Oh, I do agree that it is germane to the discussion (like the subject of "capitalism" is too), but when it leads to an oversimplification (and binary logic is generally that: an oversimplification) I don't think it adds much to a discussion. And other than the "stolen election" delusion (and what it leads to in some states, like voter suppression), I think another major flaw of US democracy is much more systemic, and that is the non-separation between executive powers and judicial powers: when judges are not ruling according to the law but according to an ideology, then I think there is something profoundly wrong with that system. More generally: There are many different democratic systems: the US one is very different from the British one, which is very different from the French one which is very different from the Dutch one, and so on... They all have their flaws, they are all fallible, politicians are often corruptible, policies - especially in the capitalist democracies - have been too much determined by economic interests (and especially those of stakeholders and big companies) instead of the common good and the society as a whole, but I still think it is preferable over a tyranny.
Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 06:35 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 06:12 |
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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^^ No, I'm just very surprised about what you think to be my "premise", because it's not. From nothing, really nothing of what I've said in this thread could be deduced that I think that "Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right". You were complaining about others twisting your words and misrepresenting what you said, but I've rarely seen such a flagrant example of complete misreading/misunderstanding and what the Germans call "Hineininterpretierung" (let's translate that with "overinterpretation"). And regarding your opinion that "democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime" shows that it is not worth discussing this kind of things with you because it is too ludicrous: if you really think that a capitalist democracy like the USA or European countries are of the same specimen as a tyrannical regime like North Korea, than I definitely can not take you serious anymore. I think you are confusing (ultra-liberal) captitalism with democracy, here (which would be another topic in which I might agree with many things you say, because I think the greedy and selfish stakeholders and bosses of the big companies have too much influence on politics and politicians...). Edited by suitkees - April 04 2024 at 05:44 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - April 04 2024 at 05:56 |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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Yes. Let’s leave it at that - if you want me to elaborate , I will, but otherwise I’ll leave the thread.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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^ Is this supposed to be a reply to my post?
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ To summarise my point: I don't agree with your premise that Western democracy is largely intact, well-designed and effective, and that the major threat is the ultra-right (or more specifically: Donald Trump). In my opinion the real problem is that democracy has been used as a facade for a de-facto tyrannical regime for at least a century or longer, where the "rulers" realised long ago that it is more effective to let most people believe that they are in charge through a democratic process than to openly suppress them. And to keep them "entertained" (as in: busy, distracted, occupied) the system includes cleverly crafted and/or groomed "threats".
So depending on where you land regarding this hypothesis, my posts were either on-topic or irrelevant.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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OK, let's try to get things back on track, because I think this
thread has deviated into other things that I did not intend. The
discussion about conspiracy theories is interesting but deserves its own
thread, and the Biden/Trump discussion is not what this
thread is about either. And please, let's try to avoid draw ing
everything into binary thought (black/white, good/bad...); the world is
more complex than that. This thread, I hoped it
to be about actual - and factual - strategies, dysfunctioning, abuse and other acts to -
deliberately or undeliberately - undermine democracy. Existing
behaviour. That's what the article I linked to in the OP is about, as some other
of my posts. So let's try to get back to that and leave the Biden/Trump
discussion or the consiracy topic to other threads. The "teetering" of
the democracies is not just a thing in the USA... So I'm quoting the OP (because I think some have not even read the article that I linked to...):
And two other posts
And
for a more global assessment you could consult the annual report of
Idea International: The Global
State of Democracy 2023... From the executive summary:
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ Of course it might be valid to say "Biden is the lesser evil", but that implies that he's still "evil", as in "not good". The only way to think of Biden as "good" in terms of democracy is that we don't get to vote for any option that would actually be good. But "the system" blames that on us, since anyone could technically run for president. The fact that media is controlled by and large by the same corporations which finance the uniparty makes it impossible for any "independent" candidate to gain enough momentum to become a threat.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65708 |
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^ Largely true.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ Sure, Trump is evil, so Biden must be good. All is well as long as Trump is not president. I find that way of thinking incredibly naive. You're willing to ignore everything that disqualifies Biden as a good person, let alone good leader.
While "douche vs turd" still holds, maybe a better analogy in this case is "good cop / bad cop". The US have a history of alternating between "good" presidents (usually democratic) and "bad" presidents (usually republican). It's a brilliant concept, keeping people busy fighting each other, while the same banks, the same corporations are financing both parties. Just like arms dealers profit from wars regardless of which side wins, the "rulers" profit from the political circus regardless of which person currently carries the title of president.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65708 |
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Of course it's built into the system but there's more to it than that, and though it has little to do with Trump per se, I'd really rather not see an extremist traitor in charge of my country. Sorry.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ I guess you think that democracy is "teetering" because of Trump, while I think the problem is built into "the system". Of course the discussion never ends, but at least the two of us will go around in circles. I don't mind, and if you think this thread is "torturous" you can always just walk away.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65708 |
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Yeah, whatever, but I doubt "we can end the discussion" because the discussion never ends. Having world-views that are too different seems to be the only thing keeping this torturous thread going.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ All high-ranking politicians are sociopaths ... that simply follows from the job profile. If you think that one can become the president of the United States and still have a conscience or a moral compass, we can end the discussion, since our world-views are simply too different.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65708 |
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^ That's fine--- it's a simple choice between an obvious sociopath and someone who believes in democracy and knows government. Not a hard decision to make.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21644 |
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^ ok, Biden is a saint. I rest my case, we have at least one fanatical Biden supporter.
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