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thehallway 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 13 2010 Location: Dorset, England Status: Offline Points: 1433 |
 Topic: PA's Top Prog albums schewed towards early days?Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:50 |
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Schewed Schmewed. Now there's a Jewish phrase for you. |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:48 |
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What does "schewed" mean? Is it a Jewish phrase?
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 20 2011 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 16952 |
Posted: November 04 2011 at 12:24 |
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Except both the albums mentioned aren't masterpieces.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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zwordser
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 04 2008 Location: Southwest US Status: Offline Points: 1383 |
Posted: November 04 2011 at 11:44 |
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I've watched the list for a couple years now, and find it interesting how it continually evolves. The bottom 50 (of the top 100) seems to be constantly changing. The top 50 is a little more stable, though maybe one or two albums break into it every week. I agree that an album has to "stand the test of time" to be considered, or rated among the very top of the thousands of albums that are out there. I'd guess that in a few more years, you may start to see more albums from the 80's, 90's or 2000's break into the top 20 and stick there (assuming that the list is still there in a few years).
I also agree that, even if it may be "flawed" (as many posts seemed to suggest) the list is a VERY useful tool for a guide to collecting/sampling music. I generally accept the idea that the best rated albums are the ones I want to look into for sampling and/or collecting first; I start with what's on the list, then if I really like a band, I may collect more of their albums that aren't on the list. Lately I've been looking more closely at the top 200. Seems to me that anything you find in the 100-200 range is going to be some of the best prog out there, and it's also where you'll find much of the best newer music. |
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: October 10 2011 at 05:19 |
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@Alex - many thanks for your reassurance, much appreciated.
As far as prog not getting a look in elsewhere... got me to to thinking about other lists from back in the day. Some of the other chaps will no doubt remember the NME Writers' top 100 lists. The 1974 list came as a centre spread with small pictures of all the album covers, except it was really the Writers' top 99 as they got readers to write in with nominations for the 100th spot. The Moody Blues didn't get a look in, for example... not even for the 100th position as their readers' votes were spread across their core 7 albums. Quicksilver Messenger Service Happy Trails came close, and I pretty soon bought that album as a result of seeing it nominated. Tubular Bells actually got the readers' vote for #100.
The point for the debate here is that there is very little of what I would call classsic prog on the list. Sure, a lot of the albums are listed here in PA (Zappa, Who, Beatles, Doors etc etc) but apart from Pink Floyd's Piper #21 and DSotM #92, Crimson ItCotCK #37, Tull Stand Up #50, The Yes Album #73... not so much ''classic'' prog. I stopped reading the NME around 1982 (major crossroads in my life, my family and career took priority, no money for albums, no time for gigs and all that malarky) so I don't remember the NME lists from the years 1985 and 1993, but thanks to the internet I can now compare them all.
Interesting to see from the 3 different lists - Forever Changes by Love goes from #52 (1974) to #14 (1985) and stays in the top 20 in 1993. Trout Mask Replica is #43 (1974) and #42 (1985), but is nowhere to be seen in 1993 (although Clear Spot is there instead.) I wonder how the PA top 100 would look if members got to vote rather than rate albums but then again that would be a whole mess of work and not really practical... just thinking aloud. The obvious things about those NME lists is that there is little prog and they are very narrow with the focus strictly on UK and US artists. Anyway, in the off chance that other members might be interested here are links to those lists, you might just find something you like:
EDIT: sorry, I seem to be having trouble adding links. A similar thing happened last night when I tried posting vids in the Italian den. Any suggestions? Thanks. Edited by seventhsojourn - October 10 2011 at 05:29 |
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: June 04 2010 Location: Terria Status: Offline Points: 13298 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 15:07 |
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My point exactly. I think Snowtorch is easily one of the best of the year, but it's certainly not ItCotCK's rival in terms of masterpiece-hood.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Offline Points: 13637 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 14:46 |
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Yep. To be fair to the great man himself, Phideaux did comment at the time on the site that, no matter how (rightly IMO) proud he was of the album, it most certainly did not belong at those exalted heights, and it did correct itself fairly quickly. I think both Snowtorch & Passion are great albums. But top 30? No, and the algorithm is working well here.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: June 04 2010 Location: Terria Status: Offline Points: 13298 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 12:03 |
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It was a similar case when Snowtorch shot up to like #20 or something when it came out because of immediate fanboyship, same with Passion (I think that was #30), but it always seems to weed itself out as more and more people rate the album.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 10:56 |
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Whoah, I don't know what happened but there's no Haken album in the top 100 anymore. I guess it goes to show the corrective prowess of the algorithm. One negative review and all that unanimity in hype was balanced. |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 10:50 |
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Chris, sorry you felt targeted in some way or another but it wasn't the case. The thread got moved because it was not a discussion on prog music but on PA as a site. 
Here it will be getting more exposure instead of being flooded under
the many new threads opened on a regular basis in the Prog Music Lounge;
that's the benefit of having dedicated subsections for specific issues.
As for Bob's comment on the algorithm, that wasn't a reply to your comment but to the general idea of the OP, about the general chart being schewed towards the classics. As for your comment, I think Bob would also agree that a dozen reviews aren't enough for a top 100 position. I certainly do. But as other cases in the last two years since the latest algorithm change have proved, once the hype reviews pass and critical reviews appear, the album will go down quite quickly. It's not perfect but it's not a disaster either. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 09:19 |
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The first thing I'd do away with is the ratings.
 If there was ever something worth taking with a grain of salt...The old stuff will reign supreme because of its age and will still leave newbies scratching their heads at times. Edited by Slartibartfast - October 09 2011 at 09:20 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 09:12 |
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Punk sites for example?
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher Joined: August 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 08:49 |
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Welcome to the Archives. Nothing like jumping in with both feet on your first post  As I'm sure you read on the top albums list the rankings are based on ratings by site members and are calculated using a weighted mean algorithm that gives precedence to ratings by site collaborators and reviewers. This means the ratings (and therefore rankings) are completely subjective, as of course are all music ratings. As Easy Living pointed out there was a fairly substantial amount of work done in the early years of the site where members logged thousands of album reviews to build up content. Since many of those old-timers became collaborators, their reviews skew the ratings. And the site originally had a fairly parochial scope (mostly symphonic rock, art rock, RIO, avant-garde), all genres whose heyday pretty much came and went in the late sixties and early seventies. Hence the prevalence of older albums on the Top-100 list. Also, the nature of the formula tends to blunt the effect of a single (or small number of) poor reviews for an album with a large number of reviews, which explains how an album like 'Close to the Edge' holds the #1 spot despite nearly 1/10th of all reviewers giving it three or fewer stars. And since a larger number of reviews tends to favor a decent album it should make sense that records that have been around longer will fare better. But nostalgia and hype can play a role as well. Wishbone Ash for example was finally admitted in 2006 following extensive debate and a few member departures. Almost immediately there was a rush to post reviews and ratings for 'Argus' and at one time the album was actually in the Top-10. There were quite a few folks who took offense to a 'prog-related' album being on the list and later ratings/reviews basically caused a self-correction, You also mentioned 'Hybris' and this one is a great example of a band and album that was all the rage on the site a few years ago which resulted in a glut of (probably inflated) ratings. 80% of the entries for that album are ratings only with no accompanying review. That list has caused no end of debate and opinion on this site. I'm one of those that would prefer we not have it at all since it's really little more than a scorecard for the perpetual popularity contest going on at the site. But I suppose it at least gives neophytes somewhere to start so at least it serves a purpose. Again, welcome to the site. There is a lot here and hopefully you'll take the time to discover all of it.  |
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus |
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: October 09 2011 at 04:56 |
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Hi J,
I'm sorry your thread was moved with such zeal but that was probably my fault, although I'm not sure it deserved to be buried in the ''Help us improve the site'' section just because I am a stupid tit.
As well as inadvertently derailing your thread, I also feel I owe you and Easy Livin an apology for your apparent difference of opinions. I think his comments could actually have been directed at me since I, not you, alluded to the algorithm. My fault, sorry about that to both of you.
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010 Location: Lancaster, UK Status: Offline Points: 1321 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 06:55 |
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No there aren't. I can't even think of one....
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 06:17 |
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I would actually prefer to be able to post reviews without a rating, but that situation isn't going to happen.
I appreciate all the hard work people have put into the algorithm and I understand the use of a weighting system, as recognition for taking the time to write a review, as a reward for collabs' continued contributions, and to minimise the effect of ratings manipulation. However I find it anomalous to have an album in the top 60 that has only four reviews. But that is just my opinion.
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jverweij
Forum Newbie 
Joined: August 20 2010 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:53 |
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well if you read my post, you would have seen that I was merely curious as to why it is the way it is. Some people gave their insight, which I appreciate, and which gave me an answer to my question.
How you seem to jump from this to me wanting to change progarchives is beyond me. Thank you for immediately labelling me as "one of those guys". I am not questioning the way anything is calculated on PA or any other method for that matter. Please read before you scorn
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:45 |
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No disrespect to the OP, but I'm always amused by those who come into our site and immediately want to change it.
The top albums list reflects the views of our members built up over a number of years. It is based on an algorithm which has been discussed in depth on many occasions.
Why is it so wrong to have one site on the Internet which reflects the music many of us have grown to love over many years. the Internet is an enormous place, There are plenty of other sites where classic prog does not get a look in. There are more outlets than ever for people to promote new music. Please at least let this site exist as it is. This is Prog Archives.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:33 |
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In other news, I moved the thread to the "Help Us Improve The Site" section.
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: October 08 2011 at 05:29 |
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I'm not sure about an album with as few as a dozen reviews making the top 100.
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PA's Top Prog albums schewed towards early days?
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Snow Dog wrote: