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Dean 
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 Topic: Stevie Wonder for Progressive Motown
Posted: July 13 2010 at 14:55 |
^ anyone of the subgenre team members using that approach would last about 5 minutes before being caught out. Since 99.9% of the artists we evaluate no one has heard of it is impossible to form an opinion without actually listening to a representative sample of their music. Of course it's easier to make a knee-jerk snap judgement on those 0.1% of artists that everyone has heard of, but it we would not do that simply because we have a bit more integrity than that. 
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Catcher10
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 14:15 |
 Easy Money wrote:
My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'. |
Well I would hope those who make an opinion one way or the other anywhere here do it with some personal validation/knowledge......But you just don't know unless one of them makes a "mistake" and we all catch it.
Its a good observation, for everyone to pay attention to, me personally, I will not make comments on artists, genres I don't know or listen to, and I certainly know my musical boundries and know where my musical roots came from....but that's just me.
Although I thought everything on the internet was true???
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:29 |
^ 
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Dean
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:25 |
^ can you even remember your last bathday? 
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Snow Dog
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:25 |
Dean wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
This sort of ties in with what I said about Wonder above. When SD was being debated I made it a point to listen to a lot of SD records.
Keep in mind I don't like SD and I consider their vocals to be annoying, but after listening to a lot of their music I decided I wouldn't have proposed them for PA, but I am fine with them being here. At least two of their albums, as I recall, are very progressive. Their other albums all show some effort in that direction. |
But would those two very progressive albums, and the ones that show some effort in that direction, nudge them towards JR/F? In the past you have said that you thought it did.
Easy Money wrote:
My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'. |
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Can't remember my last borthday so well........
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:21 |
Jim Jim Jim... I've made some space now
sorry  |
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Finnforest
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 06:17 |
Dean Dean Dean....you mailbox is full 
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Dean
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:46 |
Easy Money wrote:
This sort of ties in with what I said about Wonder above. When SD was being debated I made it a point to listen to a lot of SD records.
Keep in mind I don't like SD and I consider their vocals to be annoying, but after listening to a lot of their music I decided I wouldn't have proposed them for PA, but I am fine with them being here. At least two of their albums, as I recall, are very progressive. Their other albums all show some effort in that direction. |
But would those two very progressive albums, and the ones that show some effort in that direction, nudge them towards JR/F? In the past you have said that you thought it did.
Easy Money wrote:
My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'. |
It's a fair question, but not one that should bother any subgenre team who does evaluate an artist as we are seldom swayed by "hit singles". Personnaly I have listened to Innervisions and Songs In The Key Of Life, plus a few other tracks posted here and on YouTube. Knowing "Happy Borthday", "Ebony & Ivory" and "Superstition" doesn't affect the evaluation.
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Easy Money
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:25 |
Dean wrote:
On a related note: Patrick Moraz has been cleared for moving from JR/F to Crossover. 
...now, about Steely Dan...  |
This sort of ties in with what I said about Wonder above. When SD was being debated I made it a point to listen to a lot of SD records.
Keep in mind I don't like SD and I consider their vocals to be annoying, but after listening to a lot of their music I decided I wouldn't have proposed them for PA, but I am fine with them being here. At least two of their albums, as I recall, are very progressive. Their other albums all show some effort in that direction.
My point of course being how many people spouting opinions on Wonder have actually listened to his music outside of his radio 'hits'.
Edited by Easy Money - July 13 2010 at 05:28
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Dean
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 05:10 |
On a related note: Patrick Moraz has been cleared for moving from JR/F to Crossover.
...now, about Steely Dan...
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Easy Money
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 04:42 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
10 pages of discussion? This should have ended with the first page with a post saying...
STEVIE W FOR PROG?.... keep dreaming.
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I don't know why you said that. The first time I read the definition of crossover the first person who came to my mind was Stevie Wonder.
Which albums of his was your opinion based on?
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Dean
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 04:30 |
Well, it wasn't 10 pages of discussion about Stevie Wonder, there was a lot of tangential discussion and a fair amount of OT silliness. Somewhere in all that was some serious discussion, some good and valid arguments for and against and some fair assessments of the value of the suggestion.
I believe it was a unsuitable suggestion for Crossover Prog, perhaps JazzRock Fusion would have been an easier ask, I'm not an expert in JR/F but not all Jazz Rock is Prog so not all Jazz Rock artists get added here. This also is true of Crossover Prog, Avant-Prog and Psyche-Prog (and Art Rock) ... not all Crossover/Art Rock, Avant-garde and Psychedelic Rock is Prog so not all artists get added - there will always be some artists on the borderline, and that borderline is never in the same place for everybody. It's a fuzzy line with no clear boundary and one that shifts slightly with each addition and with each new member who posts on the forum ... some of the "controversial" suggestions of four years ago are now in the PA, many are not ... that's the dynamic nature of this archive, we're not stuck with some rigid definition, but one that is constantly changing. We need outlandish and extreme suggestions to test how far the boundaries have moved and can be moved. When most of those suggestions fail it is not a total disaster, it just demonstrates the limits of what we are prepared to consider, and if some of those suggestions do get in it really isn't the end of the world.
That's not to say that with time all suggested/rejected artists will get in, but if we don't keep testing the additions "policy" we have no real way of knowing what it is.
Edited by Dean - July 13 2010 at 04:32
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: July 13 2010 at 03:55 |
10 pages of discussion? This should have ended with the first page with a post saying...
STEVIE W FOR PROG?.... keep dreaming.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 19:57 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I don't think, as Dean explained, it would affect evaluation much either way because the main consideration is consistency with other artists in that sub genre. But it definitely affects the way the prog crowd in general perceives the issue and nothing can be done about it because people are too hung up on tags and labels.
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Catcher10
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:34 |
Alitare wrote:
A...a....joke, Roy, it's...it's a joke.
You know, like "What do you call a baby in a microwave?......lunch!"
Like MTV, Bell bottom jeans, or Rush's music career.
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It is sad that when you are the best at what you do.....there is always a bulls-eye on your back. You must be a voting member of the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame...and subscribe to Rolling Stone Magazine.
Peace out everyone.....
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Dean
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:18 |
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And with that any attempt at serious discussion is closed. Thanks for your time guys. I'm out.
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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:17 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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"Holy musical categories Batman......" What's that?? |
A...a....joke, Roy, it's...it's a joke. You know, like "What do you call a baby in a microwave?......lunch!" Like MTV, Bell bottom jeans, or Rush's music career.
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Catcher10
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:09 |
Alitare wrote:
Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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"Holy musical categories Batman......" What's that??
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Catcher10
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:03 |
Dean wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I've never used the "Pop" tag as an excuse to not to add a band into Crossover - that's kind of the whole point of Crossover. 
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BINGO!!!!!!!!! Then add Stevie Wonder and Alitare and I will stop 
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Alitare
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Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 17:03 |
Dean wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Alitare wrote:
If you look at The Alan Parsons Project, they were predominately pop, even if Tales is a fully crossover prog album. Supertramp were almost identical in the pop aspect of their music, and the same goes for radiohead and their alternative rock background. NIN had a predominately industrial setup, and a lot of folks think Coheed is just a big ol' slab of alternative hard rock. Now, I'm sure these folks are here because they took their roots and expanded on them, progressively, and I happen to feel that this is what Stevie Wonder did in the early 70's with his roots. Maybe he's not prog rock, but he's not any less prog rock than NIN, Coheed, Supertramp, APP, or Radiohead. (Oldfield's got him beat, but hell....)
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I think this is the jist of this post now......its not that Stevie Wonder will be added to PA (it will never happen...what a shame) but the fact remains that Stevie Wonder's music is progressive, classical, jazzy, fusiony and yes ROCK. And as you state same vein as Alan Parsons and the only album that most on this site quote or listen to by Supertramp is Crime of the Century, which I am sorry to break it to you is a POP ROCK album. Coheed is progressive rock.....first 4 albums are all concept, linked to each other...regardless.
I think if Stevie Wonder did not have the R&B tag on him, this might be a different scenario/outcome. R&B = Rhythmn & Blues....why is that not progressive enough to be added here? The main driver to the negativism is he is pop recording.....A huge portion of artists on this site have some kind of "pop" recording in their catalog.....So please drop that excuse and give us another valid reason why Stevie Wonder should not be included in the PA?
Prog Archives.com.......I can live with that easily. Drop the tag line of "Your Ultimate Prog Rock Resource" ....Because not everything here is ROCK, especially if you all do not think Stevie Wonder is ROCK.
Cheers everyone!!
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I've never used the "Pop" tag as an excuse to not to add a band into Crossover - that's kind of the whole point of Crossover.
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Well, regardless, Supertramp sucks. =) But I egress... And now I'm back. What was that, wordplay, you say? You say it was "digress"? Well, you can suck a big, hairy... Well, Stevie Vai may have been predominately death-jazz, but I think he fits snugly in the confines of "art rock", albeit with a vastly open-ended vision of what "art rock" entails, especially if you look at the grandiosity of Songs in the Key of Life.
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Stevie Wonder for Progressive Motown
