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Borealis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bands that don’t belong to Progarchives
    Posted: June 02 2005 at 17:14
Originally posted by JMCecil JMCecil wrote:

Playing scales and arpeggios in unison for 15 minutes IS NOT PROGRESSIVE, it's retarded.  You got one thing correct.  Most of the prg-metal is very derived from KC.  The difference is that KC was into rhythmic interplay.  How many scale sessions have you ever hear them do for entire albums?  Changing the tempo in the middle of a song does NOT MAKE IT PROGRESSIVE.  Change of Seasons is like the longest pile of poo that I ever heard try to be passed as prog rock.  It's a wanna be pop/rock/metal/prog/ballad wank fest that fails at every single thing it tries to be.

Why do people blindly love dream theater or stupidely hate it? Man, that's pushing a bit. Change of Season is a great song. You might not like it, but the longest pile of poo you ever herd?...  Can people you hate this band accept it as being bad prog? I mean, It's prog, no doubt, but it's not necessairly good. Why each time a guy like him hates a band, it is automaticaly not prog?

 

What I also really hate here is the 'If band X is prog, than band Y is prog too'. It's seem like the only argument a lot of people got when they want one of their band to be included. Like : 'Why do you think it's worth a place here?', and he just answer 'If Opeth is, then why not my band. It sound a bit like a Opeth...?'



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2005 at 09:41

ConfusedThe only ones I might possibly agree to are Jefferson Airplane, at least before they changed their second name they did some kind of psyche folk rock, but then Grateful Dead should be added as well. The second one is Steely Dan, they might fit into fusion sub-genre. LedZep, although I like a lot, never have shown real significant prog elements, they were playing blues influenced R'R. Deep Purple is mainly a hardrock, although did some things with symphonic orchestra, mainly due to John Lord's affinity to classical music. The fact that "they invented Metal" as you claim (not quite whether it was them or Black Sabbath) does not make them Prog. I don't think "Metal" is regarded as a progressive element. In fact DP were playing originally a kind of heavy bluesrock, I'd not classify them as Metal, whereas BS shows more Metal signs (DOOM METAL). Well Bowie did many things from psyche rock over indie to pop rock, but to call him Prog, quite questionabe I'd say. Same with Kate Bush, she did some good stuff, but as well some more pop-ish things. Prog? No! Just my opinions about this!Wink

Originally posted by omri omri wrote:

Asia, Radiohead, Styx & Roxy music are not realy prog. The same with Supertramp. But I do'nt feel it is that much of importance. I prefer a bit wider range than narrowing it. Anyway if some artist has done some prog then better review all his career. This way yoy get more information. It will look funny if (for example) the discography of Genesys will end after Wind & wuthering" .

What bothers me more is the lack of some good & inovative artist here such as :

Led zeppelin (they are at least prog as kansas & rush)

Deep purple (invented metal)

David Bowie (ca'nt you call it space prog ?)

Jefferson airplane (folk rock but american folk)

Kate Bush (art rock looks a fair way to describe it)

Steely dan (jazz-rock, fusion ?)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2005 at 09:21
Clap Absolutely agreed! I find as well that this never ending debate "To be Prog or NOT to be Prog" sucks incredibly! Genre labels are at all times relative things and a matter of subjective view!
Originally posted by mickstafa mickstafa wrote:



WHY WHY WHY, does every other discussion on this board talk about what is or is not prog?!?!?!?!  Every single day.  "This band is prog....  No its not prog means such and such....  Well to each his own...  Well, you suck then...."

Naturally with something as objective as a label on music, its prone to debate.  I know I can choose not to read it, but sheesh, how about some more discussion?  I like reading the boards (rarely post), but its the same damn thing over and over.

Its getting to a point where I hate to use the word "prog" because its such a loaded word.  Talk about things you like, talk about things you find difficult to like, but please, enough with the prog non-prog debate.  I guess I may get flamed for this, but hopefully some of you agree?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2005 at 16:49

Lets throw another one in
BE BOP DELUXE !
Bill Nelson what a guitarist !!!
( Art Rock ? )

Now more than ever,TURN IT UP !
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2005 at 04:33
What about The Who. I guess many of the albums fall into R&R but what about their Rock Operas (concept albums) Tommy and Quadrophenia?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2005 at 18:23

Asia, Radiohead, Styx & Roxy music are not realy prog. The same with Supertramp. But I do'nt feel it is that much of importance. I prefer a bit wider range than narrowing it. Anyway if some artist has done some prog then better review all his career. This way yoy get more information. It will look funny if (for example) the discography of Genesys will end after Wind & wuthering" .

What bothers me more is the lack of some good & inovative artist here such as :

Led zeppelin (they are at least prog as kansas & rush)

Deep purple (invented metal)

David Bowie (ca'nt you call it space prog ?)

Jefferson airplane (folk rock but american folk)

Kate Bush (art rock looks a fair way to describe it)

Steely dan (jazz-rock, fusion ?)

omri
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2005 at 05:36
Originally posted by JMCecil JMCecil wrote:

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

As for Dream Theater?  Yes, they're progressive.  A bit technical and showoffy, but we've had that in prog before.  How can you listen to something like "A Change Of Seasons" and say "Well, this just isn't prog, not in any sense of the word"?  That's like looking down at your cock and saying "Durrr!  I'm a guuuurl!"  (replace genders/organs if you're a female.)

Playing scales and arpeggios in unison for 15 minutes IS NOT PROGRESSIVE, it's retarded.  You got one thing correct.  Most of the prg-metal is very derived from KC.  The difference is that KC was into rhythmic interplay.  How many scale sessions have you ever hear them do for entire albums?  Changing the tempo in the middle of a song does NOT MAKE IT PROGRESSIVE.  Change of Seasons is like the longest pile of poo that I ever heard try to be passed as prog rock.  It's a wanna be pop/rock/metal/prog/ballad wank fest that fails at every single thing it tries to be.

Even though I'm saying this as a kettle to a pot:

A fitting description of your attitude and tactlessness, JMCecil.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2005 at 17:28
Originally posted by landberkdoten landberkdoten wrote:

Asia, Radiohead, Mars Volta?


 



I particularly agree with you on Asia. Back in '81 when I heard about this supergroup lineup, I thought my dreams came true. KC, Yes and ELP meshing together! WOW! Then I heard the album. RAZZZZZZ! The only word that came into my head was SELLOUT! If there is anything you can call pop-prog, that's it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2005 at 14:58

Asia, Radiohead, Mars Volta?

 

break the circle

reset my head

wake the sleepwalker

and i'll wake the dead
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 18:56

I dont really want a turn. I'm a bit sleepy now. I think that Dt are Prog , of a sort, progish at the very least. Even if i believed they werent though, I wouldnt care. I just like them a lot. Personally , about the Cd ratings I would only give Scenes from a memory *****.I believe iots fair for that album. If you dont consisder it prog though, then, according to the rating system here, it cant be ..can it?

I'm just getting tired of all these arguments, no one is gonna budge an inch on this issue!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 18:21

Dude, again...I'M not saying they suck.  I'm saying that it isn't prog.  I'm also saying the musical concepts are not new.  They also aren't that complicated other than the technical skills required to play the scales. 

Seriously, DT would be better compaired to jazz fusion than progressive rock.  It's much closer to say something like metal fusion than it is progressive.  Fusion is music based around melodies derived from scales over non-traditional meter.  In that comparison though their ability to develop melody out of solo lines is extremely limited and narrow (in other words they repeat themselves endlessley).  Mostly because the scales/solos are right out of practice books.  It's the stuff that the 2nd and 3rd year music college students are all doing. 

Prog is not about solos, fast, slow or otherwise.  It's about broad melodic exploration of themes.  One thing about prob singers is that when things are going well none of the playing stops, the song continues un-abaited by the addition of the voice.  DT and even the old veteran proggers are in the habit of stopping the song to let the singer sing for a bit, then they jump back in for the solos.  This is bastardized pop rock NOT prog.  One of the things that made the first several Genesis albums so great is that they did NOT get bogged down by solos.  The real genius of Tony Banks isn't that he's the fastes keyboard player ever, it's the fact that he can carry so much of a song through texture and infurence.  They were also great at letting the shape of the instrumental interplay, including the voice, carry the song from section to section.

None of that exchange happens with DT.  They are much more in line with the old jazz fusion concept of "ok, your turn".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 17:54
Well it doesnt fail with me, no w**king involved at all.Good music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 17:40
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

You said - It's a wanna be pop/rock/metal/prog/ballad wank fest that fails at every single thing it tries to be.

Well it doesnt fail at everything if its succesful and people like it..or does it?

no you are right, it doesn't fail at all of it.  It is a very successful wank fest.  Very nice scales.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 16:58

You said

It's a wanna be pop/rock/metal/prog/ballad wank fest that fails at every single thing it tries to be.

Well it doesnt fail at everything if its succesful and people like it..or does it?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 16:25

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

How can it fail if so many enjoy it?

I didn't say they couldn't enjoy it.  There is lots of crappy music that I enjoy just because it's fun.  That doesn't make it great or original or anything other than enjoyable.  Also, just because I like prog doesn't mean every band that has extended solos qualifies as a prog band. 

I even enjoy listening to DT sometimes.  But it isn't prog.  I respect the guys in DT as very good musicians.  But it isn't prog.  There are zillions of great jazz and classical and heck even country guitarists/drummers/bass players etc... that are just as good as those guys.  Just because they are the high school and college metal band du jor, doesnt make them great.  People are finally starting to figure out what a bunch of crap metallica is.  But for 10 years people thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I actually think Metallica hit some better song development than DT in their middle albums.  But, it sure wasn't prog.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 14:56
How can it fail if so many enjoy it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2005 at 14:50

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

As for Dream Theater?  Yes, they're progressive.  A bit technical and showoffy, but we've had that in prog before.  How can you listen to something like "A Change Of Seasons" and say "Well, this just isn't prog, not in any sense of the word"?  That's like looking down at your cock and saying "Durrr!  I'm a guuuurl!"  (replace genders/organs if you're a female.)

Playing scales and arpeggios in unison for 15 minutes IS NOT PROGRESSIVE, it's retarded.  You got one thing correct.  Most of the prg-metal is very derived from KC.  The difference is that KC was into rhythmic interplay.  How many scale sessions have you ever hear them do for entire albums?  Changing the tempo in the middle of a song does NOT MAKE IT PROGRESSIVE.  Change of Seasons is like the longest pile of poo that I ever heard try to be passed as prog rock.  It's a wanna be pop/rock/metal/prog/ballad wank fest that fails at every single thing it tries to be.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2005 at 21:46
Originally posted by NetsNJFan NetsNJFan wrote:

Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

I can do without Styx in there. To me they're what I call pseudo-prog. A hard-rock group throwing in a few prog moments here and there.


Yea.........but America has to have SOMETHING on this site.  That's the closest our country comes to Prog.    They are'nt that bad. 



America has a lot more than you think. Checkout Happy The Man. And let's not forget Kansas. All in all, you're right, us yanks can't compete with Europeans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2005 at 20:43

Originally posted by marktheshark marktheshark wrote:

I can do without Styx in there. To me they're what I call pseudo-prog. A hard-rock group throwing in a few prog moments here and there.

Yea.........but America has to have SOMETHING on this site.  That's the closest our country comes to Prog.    They are'nt that bad. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2005 at 18:20
I can do without Styx in there. To me they're what I call pseudo-prog. A hard-rock group throwing in a few prog moments here and there.
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