| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
carlmarx38 
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60
|
 Topic: Genesis of Classic Prog : When did it all begin ?
Posted: April 15 2010 at 12:43 |
( The idea for this blog is part of an ongoing project to create a new article for inclusion in the "Prog Rock Guides" section, which is in dire need of better articles and more complete information on the genesis and history of Progressive Rock. If you have ideas, or would like to contribute or collaborate on that project, let me know !) ____________________________________________________________________________________ I was recently reading reviews of "In The Court of the Crimson King" over in the King Crimson section, as I have recently been rediscovering the band (as a result of my new-found appreciation of the "Larks' Tongues" and "Red" albums).....As I waded through the dozens of reviews, I noticed a common theme which kept popping up in many of the reviews, usually saying something like "....Crimson King" was the First True Prog Album" (!) I know there are many who have stated this notion, including some noteable and well-known rock journalists. So I am not here to argue the point, nor to defend it. But for several days now the thought has been lurking in my mind, "Is That True ?" When was the true starting point for prog, as a true genre ? To research the idea, I have been compiling info on release dates and chart positions for the seminal prog releases from about the time of "Court of the Crimson King" up through about 1975. I know it is a matter of opinion what albums to include, so for the time being, I will consider this to be a work in progress. So far, I have been looking at all major releases by the bands which were big sellers, but also bands which have, in subsequent decades become well-known contributors to the genre. This includes bands like Caravan who weren't so well-known at the time of their classic releases, but also bands like PFM and Banco, who have recently become well-known as contributors to the early history of prog.
|
 |
carlmarx38
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60
|
Posted: April 15 2010 at 13:18 |
Looking for a minute at the database for Prog Archives, it becomes clear that nothing much happened until 1967. There was "Freak Out" by Zappa in 1966, but in '67 there were several releases which seem to be essential to the development of "prog as we know it" (whatever that is) : DAYS OF FUTURE PASSED (Moody Blues) PROCOL HARUM (first album) PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN (Pink Floyd) ABSOLUTELY FREE
Then in 1968 there was the advent of the Canturbury Scene, with debut albums by Caravan and Soft Machine, in addition to new releases by Zappa ("We're Only In It For the Money"), Moody Blues ("In Search of the Lost Chord"), and Pink Floyd ("Saucerful of Secrets").
......but do any of these really count as Prog ? Of all the above-mentioned titles, the Canturbury bands seem the closest to what later became known as classic prog, but they were both practically unknown at the time in the UK, and especially in the States (did CARAVAN or SOFT MACHINE even chart in the UK ?) In terms of visibility, I would have to give the nod to "Days of Future Passed" or "Piper at the Gates of Dawn". "Future Passed" was a sizeable hit, especially in the States, where it hit #3 (it peaked at only #27 in the UK). But from the perspective of Prog Archives, Moody Blues is still only a "crossover" band (a point I don't really argue with) while early Floyd is considered "Space Rock".
|
|
tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 12:03 |
Prog. contains a multitude of sub genres, only very remotely connected in their style, and the way they sound. Making a direct connection between "We are only in it"/"The Piper" and "The Crimson King" in an analyse of music development seems to me absurd. You would only have to listen to "The Crimson King"
1 time, and you will know, that this is the album. Setting the standarts for Classic prog.
Moody Blues and others , including The Beatles, did steps in that direction, but Crims went all the way.
Frank'y and Floyd are also pioners of Prog., but compleetly diffrent in styles.
If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ?
|
|
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
|
|
carlmarx38
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:03 |
If they sold many records or not, isnt that besides the point ?
Yes, although I'm trying with this blog (and the Time line Project on my other blog),
to also convey the Historical perspective of what was actually happening if you were
there at the time between 69-71.....If you were an average "Prog Fan" in 1970, you probably
never heard of Magma, Soft Machine, or Gentle Giant, even though they all had debut
albums out at that time. Maybe you bought Saucerful of Secrets, Freak Out, and Days of
Future Passed, but you didn't think of yourself as a "prog fan", because the term didn't
really exist yet. But you probably associated yourself with this "cool new music" and
maybe loosely associated these bands on that basis (?)
The big question is "When did the term Prog Rock first get used ?"
|
|
tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:38 |
That is the kind of question, where you will never be able to get a clear answer.
Where im from, it wasent even used by progheads while prog. was peaking, but i remember someone in here saying they used it in the US.
|
|
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
|
|
FusionKing
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 28 2009
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 522
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 13:52 |
|
Well, it seems to me that, prog starts to really get going in '69. Check out an album by Web called 'I Spider' from that year, true prog, definately. But if you take all of the big prog bands far back enough, it appears that prog began around '67-'68.
|
|
"Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre
|
|
carlmarx38
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 16:55 |
That is the kind of question, where you will never be able to get a clear answer.
Where im from, it wasent even used by progheads while prog. was peaking, but i remember someone in here saying they used it in the US.
I think I remember reading in Chris Welch' bio of YES (Close To The Edge) that the term was first
used around the time of "The Yes Album" and "Nursery Cryme", when comparing these albums
similarity to "In The Court of the Crimson King"......something about the "mellotron sound" which
was used to connect YES, ELP, Genesis, and King Crimson....(even though ELP didn't use
mellotrons !)......and then someone in a review said it was the "New progressive sound of
Rock" !!
|
|
unclemeat69
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2007
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 362
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 17:47 |
 carlmarx38 wrote:
Looking for a minute at the database for Prog Archives, it becomes clear that nothing much happened until 1967. There was "Freak Out" by Zappa in 1966, but in '67 there were several releases which seem to be essential to the development of "prog as we know it" (whatever that is) : DAYS OF FUTURE PASSED (Moody Blues) PROCOL HARUM (first album) PIPER AT THE GATES OF DAWN (Pink Floyd) ABSOLUTELY FREE |
Why is Sgt Pepper's missing from this list? Robert Fripp has said in interviews that that album encouraged him to go 'progressive'. I've said this before (I think), but to me it is no coincidence that after the release of ITCOTCK many of the bands that are now considered classic prog (Yes, Genesis, VDGG, GG etc) either got started (GG) or changed direction (the other bands mentioned). I'm not too familiar with Pink Floyd though, i wouldn't be surprised if such a change would be clearly audible there.
|
|
Follow your bliss
|
|
ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 18:12 |
A timeline would go something like this:
1966-1967: The Beatles show what is possible by featuring a symphonic sound on a few tracks
1967: The Moody Blues invent prog.
1968: Birth of Canterbury. Pink Floyd's prog explorations begin.
1969: Enter King Crimson, with a symphonic blueprint that will last three or four years.
1970-1971: Beginning of the Progressive Golden Age. Too many milestones to count for a while.
1978-1980: Prog "dies." Pick your year.
1983: Marillion resurrects prog.
I leave this for others to elaborate upon and finish, but here are the biggest events post-1983.
The birth of prog metal.
The start of the third wave.
The internet rehabillitating the genre.
The recognition of fusion and avant-garde as belonging to the genre.
|
|
|
|
WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 18:20 |
|
December 17th, 1968:
It was another dreary morning in Old Blighty. Bobby "Chuckles" Fripp awoke from another insatiable all-night bender with his mates at the Cornish Gypsy pub right around the corner. Bedraggled and slightly scraggly, Bobby clambered out of bed in search for a drink of water. As he lugged his frame forward, visions of a hookah-laced dream crept up from the deep recesses of the mind. The soundtrack involved mellotrons, guitar notes, odd time signatures and that nice paperboy Greg. He was on the cusp of a revelation. Stumbling into the living room, he gleefully clasped Giles and McDonald on their respective shoulders.
"Boys," muttered Fripp, "I've got an idea."
|
|
carlmarx38
Forum Groupie
Joined: February 01 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 60
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 20:07 |
1966-1967: The Beatles show what is possible by featuring a symphonic sound on a few tracks
1967: The Moody Blues invent prog.
1968: Birth of Canterbury. Pink Floyd's prog explorations begin.
1969: Enter King Crimson, with a symphonic blueprint that will last three or four years.
1970-1971: Beginning of the Progressive Golden Age. Too many milestones to count for a while.
1978-1980: Prog "dies." Pick your year.
UK gives us a brief hope for awhile.........then dies.
Desperate souls in the States hanging onto the "Illusion of prog" with bands like
STYX, KANSAS, and ELO....."FareWell To Kings" (RUSH) gives us the birth of Prog
Metal.
1983: Marillion resurrects prog.
.......and IQ !
I leave this for others to elaborate upon and finish, but here are the biggest events post-1983.
The birth of prog metal.
The start of the third wave.
The internet rehabillitating the genre.
The recognition of fusion and avant-garde as belonging to the genre.
(check out my other blog post of TIMELINE OF PROGRESSIVE ROCK, let me know
if you like it, I have a rough draft up through 1975, but currently only posted
through '72.)
|
|
Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 20:24 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
December 17th, 1968:
It was another dreary morning in Old Blighty. Bobby "Chuckles" Fripp awoke from another insatiable all-night bender with his mates at the Cornish Gypsy pub right around the corner. Bedraggled and slightly scraggly, Bobby clambered out of bed in search for a drink of water. As he lugged his frame forward, visions of a hookah-laced dream crept up from the deep recesses of the mind. The soundtrack involved mellotrons, guitar notes, odd time signatures and that nice paperboy Greg. He was on the cusp of a revelation. Stumbling into the living room, he gleefully clasped Giles and McDonald on their respective shoulders.
"Boys," muttered Fripp, "I've got an idea."
|
yeah, Ian's uncle has money and he'll pay for us to make a real album  seriously though, as to the OP's question, I think the general consensus is that Crimson's debut was perhaps the first prog album with all of its components in place (including thematic structure), though even that's debatable as this had already occurred in rock in other forms as mentioned in this thread. The Nice's first two from 1967 & '68 and Five Bridges I haven't seen mentioned, these were crucial LPs and exhibited most of the important Prog elements (the Beach Boy's Smiley Smile in '67 as well). Another interesting thing about KC's debut is that if you listen to Giles,Giles&Fripp, ItCotCK isn't far from the Brit-psyche/pop they'd been doing, and their truly progressive spark wouldn't get going till subsequent albums
Edited by Atavachron - April 16 2010 at 20:37
|
|
ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
|
Posted: April 16 2010 at 20:29 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
December 17th, 1968:
It was another dreary morning in Old Blighty. Bobby "Chuckles" Fripp awoke from another insatiable all-night bender with his mates at the Cornish Gypsy pub right around the corner. Bedraggled and slightly scraggly, Bobby clambered out of bed in search for a drink of water. As he lugged his frame forward, visions of a hookah-laced dream crept up from the deep recesses of the mind. The soundtrack involved mellotrons, guitar notes, odd time signatures and that nice paperboy Greg. He was on the cusp of a revelation. Stumbling into the living room, he gleefully clasped Giles and McDonald on their respective shoulders.
"Boys," muttered Fripp, "I've got an idea."
|
 
|
|
richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28021
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 02:43 |
The Nice were very important in the birth of prog rock as we know it. Their first album 'The Thoughts Of Emerlist Davjack'( 1967) included some very strongly classically linked tracks 'War And Peace' and 'Rondo' where Keith Emerson started his experiments. This line up included the guitarist Davy O'List who found it very hard to live with Emersons lead role in the band plus his growing drugs abuse got himself thrown out the band. (Davy is a nice bloke btw.Met him several years ago and he bore no resentment to Emerson whatsoever). The signifance of this though was that Emerson was able to give even more free reign to his symphonic exploarations and a year later they released 'Ars Longa Vita Brevis'. The Nice were without doubt the most influential band on the British prog scene until King Crimson emerged in 1969 although even after that The Nice ploughed on with further important albums included the strangely under appreciated 'The Five Bridges Suite' 1970. KC had upped the ante and Emerson was to go onto bigger and better things. However in the period 1967-68 The Nice were as important as any in the development of prog.
Edited by richardh - April 17 2010 at 02:49
|
|
AllyAshantiBrown
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 17 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 3
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 05:48 |
|
the history of the modern computer begins with two separate technologies—automated .... completed but did not see full-time use for an additional two years. Nearly all modern computers implement some form of the stored-program architecture, ..... Further topics. Hardware.
|
|
Mr. Maestro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2010
Location: Knowhere, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 918
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 10:13 |
I think the reason that the birth of prog is such a vague topic is that everyone has a different idea of just what defines "birth" in a musical sense. The first progressive music ever recorded could be practically anything: Beatles, Procol Harum, Zappa, etc. The first truly progressive album is a little less vague, but still subjective: In the Court of the Crimson King, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, maybe even Sgt. Pepper's. But the first progressive rock band? There's the real question. Crimson? Floyd? Again, it could be practically anything.
If I had to nail each of these catagories down myself, it'd go:
First Progressive Music Ever Recorded: The Beatles on Sgt. Pepper's, especially "A Day In the Life"
First Progressive Rock Album: Pink Floyd, Piper at the Gates of Dawn
First Progressive Rock Band: Either King Crimson or Floyd, if you consider early Floyd true prog
|
|
"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."
|
|
flaxton
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 110
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 12:26 |
|
ian mcdonald had just as much input to itkotck as fripp. maybe he was the one who came upon the idea of progressive rock.
|
|
flaxton
|
|
javier0889
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 21 2010
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 170
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 15:09 |
I think we should give The Who at least an honorable mention for things like A Quick One, While He's Away (song), and their concept albums like Sell Out, Tommy and Quadrophenia.
|
|
RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 07 2008
Location: Somewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 1072
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 20:49 |
|
Damn you javier, stole mine right out of my head
A Quick One has strong elements of prog (a definite prog song in the title track, plus a complex instrumental), and that's 1966
Stronger for sure is Piper, I haven't really listened to Srg. Peppers. Piper has huge, glaring Prog features (Intersteller Overdrive, huge experimenting, complexity and oddness on all tracks). It isn't really a pop record. It is already Art Rock. The Floyd already had their single days behind them when they released that album. Their next single (Apples and Oranges) flopped, and they didn't get a charter again until Another Brick in 1980.
I would also vouch for the Who's Tommy 1969, a definite prog album in quasi-pop format, but hardly less prog than something like Alan Parsons Project. In the Court goes without saying of course.
Bob Dylan's material in 1965 is earlier than most of what has been discussed and features what I consider quasi-prog elements. Desolation Row, for instance, is an anti-pop song and I think early Prog is better labled as sort of improvised anti-pop.
Edited by RoyFairbank - April 17 2010 at 20:55
|
|
Ronnie Pilgrim
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 09 2010
Location: The South of TX
Status: Offline
Points: 771
|
Posted: April 17 2010 at 21:11 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
Bob Dylan's material in 1965 is earlier than most of what has been discussed and features what I consider quasi-prog elements.
|
Agreed. I've always thought Prog Folk owed a lot to Dylan.
|
|
"The pointy birds are pointy pointy
Anoint my head anointy nointy"
Steve Martin The Man With Two Brains
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Genesis of Classic Prog : When did it all begin ?
