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altaeria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
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Points: 178
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Topic: Bad? or really just not your thing? Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:29 |
I understand that reviews are Subjective in nature...
but I find it silly when somebody trashes legitimately quality material.
We DO realize the difference between an actual BAD album
and one that just doesn't fit our tastes, DON'T WE?
Take, for instance, the 2-star reviews for "Sgt. Pepper's" ...
or those reviewers who simply dislike bands like VDGG or KC or ELP
and proceed to rate ALL their albums with 1 or 2 stars.
I get it. You don't like them ... but 1 star for "Brain Salad Surgery"?
Am I supposed to respect your reviews after that...on a Prog site??
It's just difficult to take that seriously--and I want to respect all reviewers.
So how could this sort of thing be sorted out ideally?
I think, in most cases, the problem lies with general GENRE preferences.
So maybe the ratings system could include extra selection buttons (besides the stars)
that look something like this:
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Zeuhl
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Symphonic
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Progressive Metal
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Post Rock
... etc.
and each album's page could show a total of the these responses.
Now, what would this accomplish?
First off --- It might help give readers an indication of
whether or not an album's style suits them before they even look at any reviews.
If a reader prefers ProgFolk ...
and the page shows that 17 other ProgFolk fans already checked that this album "wasn't their cup of tea"
it gives a pretty good indication that this will probably NOT be to the reader's liking either.
Second --- It could help keep some reviewers from looking downright silly.
I don't know about anybody else...
but I tend to NOT respect (and ultimately ignore) reviewers who bash top-notch stuff.
It's one thing to respectfully say that "Relayer" is litle busy or maybe disjointed, even for a Yes fan...
but it's hard for me to take you serious when you give it a "for collectors only" rating
(because, deep down, you prefer blues-based Psychedelia).
"For collectors only" ?? Collectors of what? We're still talking about Prog, right?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just check off the "I prefer Psychedelic" rating and move on.
Of course, I realize that this isn't even close to a perfect system...
but it could help keep unwarranted LOW ratings to a minimum.
Not that I expect anything to change, though. I don't even know why I really care.
It must be my mild autism acting up again.
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:42 |
ok Altaeria,
this is one of my main bug bears..... people calling an album "rubbish" because they don't like it. it's been discussed and argued about over and over and over....... that's not to say it doesn't warrant a HUGE amount of discussion from time to time.....
Good old fashioned courtesy seems to be out moded, if somone doesn't like my fav band thats perfectly fine..... I don't happen to get along with King Crimson, I have tried but it's not my bag...... if they say my fav band is rubbish, or an album is poorly executed just becuase they don't like it I get snarly....... but that achieves nothing. Taste is objective, different likes and dislikes are what make us interesting..... but it's immature and pointless to write off what we don't like.
pet subject really...... still I don't think we'll ever change things.......!!!
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Mellotron Storm
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 13502
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:49 |
I couldn't agree more with what you just said. If i give a 3 star rating to something that has a lot of 5 star ratings,i have to explain why,sometimes it's the genre that's not one of my favourites,or it might not fit my tastes.I do feel i have to give my opinion and review it though.On the other hand, how can you give a classic album 1 or 2 stars is beyond me.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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chopper
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:03 |
There's no such thing as a bad album, there's just ones you like and ones you don't like.
I guess really discordant music could be described as "bad", e.g. if you gave a chimpanzee a violin and recorded it for an hour, but even then someone would probably like it.
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Wilcey
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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2696
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:17 |
chopper wrote:
chimpanzee a violin and recorded it for an hour, but even then someone would probably like it. |
I do hope you're not being chimpist Chopper.......I might get snarly if you 'dis' the chimps!!!
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FruMp
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 16 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 322
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:27 |
I think things balance out really, the truly classic albums will have less haters than the great or just good albums.
the proportion of 1 and 2 star reviews compared to the total reviewing population is almost a way to measure quality in itself, you couldn't find many haters of close to the edge.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20250
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:39 |
altaeria wrote:
Of course, I realize that this isn't even close to a perfect system...
but it could help keep unwarranted LOW ratings to a minimum.
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The last thing I want to see is the average ratings for albums go upwards. I want low ratings (with reviews) to be numerous!!! This is the only way to tell an excellent album from a good album
They are already way too high, because fans rate what they adore and not what they dislike. There are some absurdly high rated albums. This is especially true for new prog: there are people giving 5* to DT albums while not having listened to it fully once.
Ratings for new albums should not be allowed before two or three months after their releases.
And still that wouldn't stop the lack of credibility. Albums should be rated according/compared to the whole genre really with historical implications. I realize this would disadvantage most new albums, but in 20 years' time, how will MTV, TOOL, TFK or Opeth rate? Not nearly quite as high as they are today.
I think I only rated three 06 albums (and none before four or five months after their releases) and I rated only one 07 album (the Real Time live album of VdGG, of which I've known everysong for at least 10 years bar the two from the 04 album Present)
Would everyone be doing that, I think that the average ratings would gain a lot of credibility.
Until then.............
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let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
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Points: 7559
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:48 |
The ratings system here is quite unique - some find it hard to adjust to a system where we're not awarding "points out of 5".
Obviously, much of a review will be based on taste - and it's difficult, if not impossible to be completely objective about music. On the whole, Prog fans are intelligent enough to understand how this site rates albums, and some just excercise their own freedom of choice to ignore it and do their own thing.
The body of the review is always the giveaway: I tend to ignore blatant bashings or drooling fanboys because I'm most interested in the music itself: Thoughtfully written reviews are always best - not necessarily those done by an "expert" - as they provide useful information into why someone likes or dislikes a certain piece or album.
It's been recently proven that, out of a group of expert farmers, not one was able to guess the exact weight of a bull at an auction.
I think that says something about experts - and bull...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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clarke2001
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Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
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Points: 4160
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:51 |
Hm-mm.. Hm.
The albums "Close To The Edge" and "Dark Side Of The Moon", recognised as masterpieces by many, mean nothing to me. I just don't like them, I think they are way too overrated etc etc... and I could live happily ever after without listening to them ever again.
However, I would not rate them with one star - because I can hear, feel and analyse a certain story/skill/atmosphere going there - millions of fans can't be (that) wrong. These albums will get three stars from me, or two in the worst case. They're not rubbish, they're just not my cup of tea, and I respect that certain artism presented there - regardless of my disliking for it.
Speaking of rubbish...on the other hand... If some album is so bad that, in my opinion, deserves one star, and basically it's rubbish, why should I hesitate to call it rubbish?
I'm a big fan of ELP, Zeppelin, Queen...and if someone rate "Love Beach", "In Through The Out Door" or "Hot Space" with one star and explicitly call it "rubbish", "junk" or use a phrase like "it sucks", I - as a fan - won't get offended. These albums are below all standards, and although I would personally rate them with two/three stars, I could understand why are they "junk" to someone.
So, I'm wond'ring again, why should I hesitate to call a really bad album "rubbish"?
To be respectful to the musicians?
Even some artist/band made statements like "that album of ours is rubbish...it was a mistake...we did it only for money...we wish we never published that". There are numerous examples in the history of rock.
No matter how harsh I might be while reviewing something (and I'm not that harsh), no matter how hard I try to imply that a certain album is "rubbish", it will always remain just my personal opinion.
So, if someone want to rate "Brain Salad Surgery" (5 star in my book) with one star, or to label it as "rubbish", so be it. Progressive rock represents such a wide variety of styles, and human beings (even only within the realm of prog fans) have such a wide tastes, that I can easily imagine there's a person (prog fan!) who think BSS is rubbish worth one star (although the reasons why that person dislikes it are beyond my perception).
In conclusion:
When we have a childish attempt to bash one band, giving one star rating to all of the band's albums, the usual reaction is "(s)he is entitled to his/her opinion...let's delete the ranting reviews and leave the ratings".
No!!!
Let's delete rating without reviews and leave those reviews if they are good enough to justify an opinion. If you think ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy and BSS are all rubbish, fine. Say it. But tell us why.
Edited by clarke2001 - April 26 2007 at 11:56
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Points: 21206
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 12:10 |
I have a problem with people calling Queen - Hot Space "rubbish" (just an aribtrarily chosen example) ... reason: There are far worse albums than that one. It deserves at least 2 stars by any standard, given that 1 star is the lowest rating available in the archives.
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mystic fred
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Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Points: 4252
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 12:24 |
No Prog here i hope!...
"The worst album in the world... ever!
Competition was intense, but Simon Le Bon and co have won pop's least coveted title
By Anthony Barnes, Arts and Media Correspondent
Published: 26 March 2006
It may have sounded like a winning formula at the time: a chart-topping band covering some of the most iconic songs of the past 30 years.
But Duran Duran's 1995 release Thank You, in which they paid tribute to the bands that had inspired them, has been given the dubious honour of being branded the worst album of all time.
With 12 tracks, including Lou Reed's "Perfect Day", Bob Dylan's "Lay Lady Lay", Elvis Costello's "Watching the Detectives" and The Doors' "Crystal Ship" - none of which was suited to their style of glossy pop - it is 54 minutes and 29 seconds of pure hell, according to music experts at Q magazine.
The track that prompted the most hoots of derision was their decision to tackle Public Enemy's "911 is a Joke" - originally an angry diatribe by militant rappers about the treatment of the black underclass in the US, which lost its power when performed by a group of middle-class white boys from Birmingham.
Other horrors that made Q's hall of shame included every solo Spice Girls album, given equal footing at number two in the chart. Chief among them must have been Victoria Beckham's attempts at pop credibility, one of many attempts at career resurrection.
Another that makes the list is Naomi Campbell's recording debut Baby Woman. The album was created by credible producers, including Youth and Tim Simenon, but even their input didn't get it into the top 75.
The deputy editor of Q, Gareth Grundy, said: "The list is a mixture of the unspeakable and those ridiculous acts of hubris, although we tried not to pick on the obvious soft targets.
"Duran Duran was the one that united everyone in agreement. We put it on in the office to remind ourselves how bad it was. Sometimes these things are redeemed by some sort of kitsch or novelty value, but it didn't even have that. It's not funny for even a split second and not even the sort of thing that you would put on for a laugh if you were drunk.
"It is abysmal on every level, as befits an album where you have Simon Le Bon trying to cover Public Enemy."
Even the studio engineer who worked on the Duran Duran project, Ken Scott, thought the worst-album accolade was a fair assessment. "I think it turned out pretty badly," he admitted.
Afterwards, the band described the album, which went to number 12 and clocked up a pitiful three weeks in the charts, as "commercial suicide".
As a result their next effort did not get an official release in the UK. Cover versions are a common theme in Q's top 10. It also includes Urban Renewal, a collection of Phil Collins songs performed by credible hip-hop acts, and Westlife's attempt to cover some of Frank Sinatra's hits.
TOP 10 WORST
Duran Duran
Thank You "DOWNRIGHT INSULTING"
Spice Girls
Any of their solo albums "WRETCHED"
Various Artists
Urban Renewal "WORSE THAN THE ORIGINAL"
Lou Reed
Metal Machine Music "TOSS"
Billy Idol
Cyberpunk "RISIBLE"
Naomi Campbell
Baby Woman "GOBSMACKING HUBRIS"
Kevin Rowland
My Beauty "HIDEOUSLY MAWKISH"
Mick Jagger
Primitive Cool "SOULLESS FUNK-ROCK"
Westlife
Allow Us to Be Frank "AN UNCALLED-FOR MAULING"
Tin Machine
Tin Machine II "A DISASTER"
AND OTHERS...
DJ MARK RADCLIFFE nominates Metal Machine Music, by Lou Reed: "I would say William Shatner's album, but that's almost so bad it comes out the other side. Metal Machine Music is not one, but two albums of unlistenable noise, so technically it's twice as bad. I think Lou Reed would be quite proud of it being the worst album ever."
Edited by mystic fred - April 26 2007 at 12:26
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 6419
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:13 |
altaeria wrote:
but I find it silly when somebody trashes legitimately quality material. |
There is no such thing as legitimately quality material. The fact that some people trash something that you think is legitimately quality material is proof enough. Obviously, in their opinion, the album they're trashing is not legitimately quality material. Just leave people's opinions alone, if you don't like some of them, ignore them.
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Yontar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 07 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 131
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:17 |
altaeria wrote:
I understand that reviews are Subjective in nature...
but I find it silly when somebody trashes legitimately quality material.
We DO realize the difference between an actual BAD album
and one that just doesn't fit our tastes, DON'T WE?
Take, for instance, the 2-star reviews for "Sgt. Pepper's" ...
or those reviewers who simply dislike bands like VDGG or KC or ELP
and proceed to rate ALL their albums with 1 or 2 stars.
I get it. You don't like them ... but 1 star for "Brain Salad Surgery"?
Am I supposed to respect your reviews after that...on a Prog site??
It's just difficult to take that seriously--and I want to respect all reviewers.
So how could this sort of thing be sorted out ideally?
I think, in most cases, the problem lies with general GENRE preferences.
So maybe the ratings system could include extra selection buttons (besides the stars)
that look something like this:
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Zeuhl
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Symphonic
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Progressive Metal
O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Post Rock
... etc.
and each album's page could show a total of the these responses.
Now, what would this accomplish?
First off --- It might help give readers an indication of
whether or not an album's style suits them before they even look at any reviews.
If a reader prefers ProgFolk ...
and the page shows that 17 other ProgFolk fans already checked that this album "wasn't their cup of tea"
it gives a pretty good indication that this will probably NOT be to the reader's liking either.
Second --- It could help keep some reviewers from looking downright silly.
I don't know about anybody else...
but I tend to NOT respect (and ultimately ignore) reviewers who bash top-notch stuff.
It's one thing to respectfully say that "Relayer" is litle busy or maybe disjointed, even for a Yes fan...
but it's hard for me to take you serious when you give it a "for collectors only" rating
(because, deep down, you prefer blues-based Psychedelia).
"For collectors only" ?? Collectors of what? We're still talking about Prog, right?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just check off the "I prefer Psychedelic" rating and move on.
Of course, I realize that this isn't even close to a perfect system...
but it could help keep unwarranted LOW ratings to a minimum.
i think every album you personally consider bad should get two stars for effort, but i mean come on there are some prog works that are straight up crap!
Not that I expect anything to change, though. I don't even know why I really care.
It must be my mild autism acting up again.
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i think there are some albums that don't fit my tastes, and i give those albums a two or three. But certain bands i just don't like all that much. Like pink floyd for example, most prog fans would say im nuts but i only gave them a two. Why? Because i don't think they are all that great. Not because they weren't influential or good musicians. Mostly just because i don't really like em alot. I mean personal preference is the sole purpose of reviewing. Just because a band did something innovative or big for a genre doesn't mean that you MUST listen to that band. Flat out, your personal rating for an album is a reflection of your perception of the album, not some prog biased run down conformist opinion.
Edited by Yontar - April 26 2007 at 13:22
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coleio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 272
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:31 |
If you don't like what an album has been rated, do a review yourself and put your own opinion in there (about the album, no ranting at another reviewer).
If you haven't heard an album, but it's by your favourite band and it gets some bad reviews, so what? Buy the album yourself an have a listen to it, then again come post your own review and opinion. Simple no?
You don't like someones opinion then that's your own problem, it's entirely up to them. Free speech for everyone right?
There is no definitely good music, I don't like a lot of 'classic' albums, doesn't mean I think everyone else should think they're bad and likewise with bands I do like.
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Eat heartily at breakfast, for tonight, we dine in Hell!!
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 13:59 |
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tuxon
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Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
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Points: 5502
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:05 |
A review or rating can't be wrong.
And one need not take into account how others will apreciate an album.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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chopper
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Joined: July 13 2005
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 15:25 |
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Sasquamo
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Joined: September 26 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 828
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 16:39 |
If I don't like an album, then it's bad. What's the problem?
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Certif1ed
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Joined: April 08 2004
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 16:47 |
mystic fred wrote:
"I would say William Shatner's album, but that's almost so bad it comes out the other side. "
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Transformed Man is a work of genius - it takes a special kind of appreciation.
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: April 26 2007 at 16:48 |
^ remember what happened to me when I mentioned the words "genius" and "Jon Bon Jovi" in the same sentence?
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