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What double albums should be a single and why?
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Points: 14691 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 25 2020 at 15:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:



Being an "artist" means that your "vision" is strictly yours and an individual thing ... no one else can do Picasso. No one else can do Stravinsky ... no one else can do __________________ (whoever!) ... and that is what the history of the arts has been about.
 

Most artists studied... had teachers who criticised them... maybe they even hated what their teachers said and developed in opposition to some criticism... they were born with talent and they all had a vision on their own, but for expressing it at the highest level, they needed to learn and improve, and take on impulses from outside, even if they used them for opposing them.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:



Being an "artist" means that your "vision" is strictly yours and an individual thing ... no one else can do Picasso. No one else can do Stravinsky ... no one else can do __________________ (whoever!) ... and that is what the history of the arts has been about.
 

Most artists studied... had teachers who criticised them... maybe they even hated what their teachers said and developed in opposition to some criticism... they were born with talent and they all had a vision on their own, but for expressing it at the highest level, they needed to learn and improve, and take on impulses from outside, even if they used them for opposing them.

Hi,

I'm not sure that anyone is "born" with anything ... the idea, and point, is, that if you know and see something inside well enough and are lucky enough to work on it and with it as a youngster, you will end up in the artistic circles, because you will know what it is all about for the most part.

I've never met, a music teacher that knew anything else about music, except what it was already known ... none of them even had the ability to even say ... there is a lot more that I will never know or understand in music ... and this sends the "teaching" towards the mental extrapolations that we think "IS" what music is all about. Even a place like Berklee, can not work on "improvisation" and help define something new, because there is no "process" that can teach free form ... all they know is a riff, sound off an effect, or all the notes in the instrument ... the rest ... sort of does not exist.

Conversely, I have met several instructors/directors in theater that are far and away superb and outstanding in this area of improvisation and expression ... maybe one day you will get the chance to see THE TIGHTROPE and watch Peter Brooke before he passes away ... he has been the most incredible artist in terms of expression in theater for 65 years ... going way back to the mid 60's which I think had an effect on Beatles and a lot of music that became "psychedelic" as, for example, his MIDSUMMER'S NIGHT DREAM is as psychedelic without the drugs as ever ... specially when you see it now, even though the prints available are totally horrible!

Improvement, is, all about expressing yourself better (you'll SEE that in The Tightrope) , but it is also (as you suggest) about the person learning to use the materials in front of him/her ... and this is probably the hardest part, since some folks never really grow out of what they see, specially when it has so much ... and all you can do is try to make some sense of it, which of course, is never really clear.

But, to go back to the double album thing (sorry about the digression), it is my contention that Jon knew pretty damn well what he was hoping to hear and see, and for the most part it got done, even if there was some "dissension", which I think may have ended up making some of the material a bit on the odd side when it comes to "popular music", however, the continuity of it all makes sense, even when you read a book like THE BARDO, where each new step is guarded by a "dragon" which is a sort of image for the UNKNOWN ... and here we are ... with an "unknown", and we tend to think it is not musical, and it is not good ... and essentially, we really do not have any criteria with which to judge it bad or good, since the only thing being stated is one's like or dislike!

A lot of the "double albums" are not just a bunch of songs ... unless you name was THE BEATLES, and they even stated ... they could do anything they wanted ... AND DID!

I suppose that we all HOPE that a double album is a conceptual idea that makes sense and takes us for a trip, but too many of them are just a bunch of songs, and their relationship is trivial at best ... it doesn't make them a bad album, but it makes them a good candidate for the "better as a single album" thought!


Edited by moshkito - June 26 2020 at 13:55
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Awesoreno View Drop Down
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Next topic: what triple albums should be double albums?
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Next topic: what triple albums should be double albums?
 
How many triple albums are there? But even before you wrote this, I was going to mention Godley & Creme - Consequences, a triple album consisting of three sides of music, and three sides of what is largely a comedy by Peter Cook. The problem with comedies is once you've listened to them a few times, they are no longer worth listening to. So, one might consider an album without the comedy part to be better. But in fact for me, it was actually the comedy part that was why I got the album in the first place. So, without the comedy part, I would've missed out on the other three sides of music.
 
 
 
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Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Next topic: what triple albums should be double albums?

I can't even think of any triple albums, lol. Does Final Fantasy VII on the PS1 count? LOL

In all seriousness: "What triple album should be a single album?" is a good question!

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
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Tom Ozric View Drop Down
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Genesis - Lamb. It’s great, awesome,........but still has lots of ‘padding’ .
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Anyway, the two albums imo that should have been a single are TFTO and Lamb. I actually like the wall the way as it is. There might be some padding but not as much as the other two.


Agreed! Editing is a painful process. I realize that one characteristic of Prog, and especially early Prog, can be lengthy songs. Oftentimes, it is justified, especially when there are changing themes or when time is needed to build up to something. But, other times I feel that lengthy songs are due to a lack of good editing. In jazz, extensive pieces are often due to improvisation. However, in Prog, I prefer that there be a real direction.
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All the double albums of The Flower Kings ! in 80 mn, 50 mn of interesting tracks and 30 mn of boring sounds. I think that Roine Stolt should record EPs, but I guess he doesn't know that format exists. Big smile
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I was sure I would see Kate Bush's Aeriel or Iron Maiden's Book of Souls somewhere on this thread, but so far no mentions for either one!
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

I was sure I would see Kate Bush's Aeriel or Iron Maiden's Book of Souls somewhere on this thread, but so far no mentions for either one!

Aerial was barely 80 minutes in total (not far off a normal CD length). I think Kate Bush decided it would be better separated into 2 parts and I'm with her on that actually. It was her first release for 13 years and demonstrates a massive burst of creativity.
The Iron Maiden album , yep it's a bit much perhaps.
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Steve Wyzard View Drop Down
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I've thought of two more albums that seem to be mentioned whenever this subject comes up:

1) Pat Metheny: 80/81
2) The Who: Quadrophenia
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chopper View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

I was sure I would see Kate Bush's Aeriel or Iron Maiden's Book of Souls somewhere on this thread, but so far no mentions for either one!

No way is anyone going to trim anything off Aerial.

Except maybe Bertie.
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

I was sure I would see Kate Bush's Aeriel or Iron Maiden's Book of Souls somewhere on this thread, but so far no mentions for either one!

No way is anyone going to trim anything off Aerial.

Except maybe Bertie.
I totally agree. Aerial is my favourite Kate Bush album and there's no way I'd want to see it trimmed down to a single album. Thumbs Up

My nomination goes to Van der Graaf Generator's Present album, where Disc 2 consists of a collection of  godawful improvisations. Thumbs Down
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Actually Present is a single album.

The 2nd disc with the improvisations is only some kind of bonus disc. I never thought of it as a double album.
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I prophesy disaster View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

My nomination goes to Van der Graaf Generator's Present album, where Disc 2 consists of a collection of  godawful improvisations. Thumbs Down
 
I actually prefer Disc 2 to Disc 1 because I liked the change in direction. However, ALT was not a success to me.
 
I very much like the track "Manuelle":
 
 
 
 
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This topic is under the prog rubric but George Harrison's All Things needed some editing down to at least 2 lp's
 imho....or further if one was knife happy that day in the studio.   Wink
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

This topic is under the prog rubric but George Harrison's All Things needed some editing down to at least 2 lp's
 imho....or further if one was knife happy that day in the studio.   Wink
And lose classic songs like "It's Johnny's Birthday" and "Thanks For The Pepperoni"?  Wink
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chopper View Drop Down
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Originally posted by PhideauxFan PhideauxFan wrote:

All the double albums of The Flower Kings ! in 80 mn, 50 mn of interesting tracks and 30 mn of boring sounds. I think that Roine Stolt should record EPs, but I guess he doesn't know that format exists. Big smile

I'd have to second that. Some of their albums could do with a bit of trimming. Just because you can fit 80 minutes of music onto a CD doesn't mean you should.
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rick1 Rick1 wrote:

We forget the technology of record making.  You couldn't make a three sided album.  
...

Hi,

Absolutely, totally, irretrievably INCORRECT.

Monty Python did it ... and no one else to my knowledge and it was fun to watch the folks at our local station try to play the bit they wanted and they got something else ... it drove them nuts until they figured it out ... at which point, NONE OF THEM ever touched the album again!

It was quite funny, and a wonderful finger up in the sky!

One side of the album had alternating grooves all the way to the end!

Now, just for the thought of the technology involved, that album deserves to be on PA ... as "progressive". Although not in music!

Smile
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

...
But that's totally different, isn't it? The record company is a business that runs by the rules of business. They have to make a living, too. They don't make an artistic assessment, they ask themselves, will we more likely earn or lose money if we sell this as quadruple album. Their assessment that they have an all too good chance of losing money with the quadruple and their chances of earning money are better if they release them one by one may well be correct, even if they admitted that from an artistic point of view you are right. But that's not the game they play. And the game we play here is different still, at least as far as I'm concerned. Even if you got your quadruple released and some people loved it to pieces as it is, what's wrong with somebody else writing "I could well do without half of it" if they just think so? If you as an artist put out your work in public, you've got to live with people saying what they think, even if it doesn't flatter you.

Hi,

Just watched the Muscle Shoals special and what a great treat it was ... and the most disappointing fact? They had Lynard Skynard and the song was over 10 minutes ... and when he tried to peddle it the record company wanted a 3 and a half minute song. The producer balked and told them to go see the band perform live ... and on that day, no one showed up from the record company ... and the producer says, he lost the band.

It doesn't matter if you are a TV network, or a Movie studio, but in America these have owned most of the copyrights and the sales information on a lot of history (the movie companies were the ones that setup the controls for the music, and they went after music later ... with their own film stars! (Tom Dowd).

In the end, this is no different than a novel or a very large painting ... so you gonna tell Goya his painting is worthless because it is huge? You gonna tell a Dostoyevsky that he is full of crap? Or you gonna say to a film maker that The Stalker is a total waste of time and money, not to mention film stock?

There is a moment, when you have to allow for some things ... the interpretation of it is important and has been the "definition" of many of the novels in the history of literature. So, Moby Dick could have been written in 10 pages by some PA person, right?

Be it personal, or not, what any artist does is his/her business and for those that complaint that they don't want to buy the over sized material ... I like to say ... go get something else ... this artist is not for you ... but no ... that "buyer" gets upset ... how ridiculous is that? If it were your own child, would you be upset or proud that he/she finished it and created something rather interesting, if different from your tastes!

Accept that ... it's OK not to like it, but trashing the artist is out of line ... go buy something else ... heck, nowadays you can preview the album at the tube ... so WTF are some folks complaining about?

If your opinion is that strong, go do your own band and work ... and then see if you like the comments ... I bet one wouldn't!


Edited by moshkito - March 31 2021 at 11:02
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