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The Quiet One 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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 Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:07 |
 Epignosis wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.
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The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one. It cannot be proven or verified. You cannot be objective about your opinion. This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review." That doesn't make any sense. Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like? Here- I'll write one real quick:
Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater. It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records. I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries. John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album. He plays more than one note. The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies. The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade. There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes. Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.
That is an objective review. Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever. Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron. The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.
If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful).
There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star. But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details.
If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly.
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By the way, Robert, just checked his list of reviews and rated Lateralus 1 single star 
To quote Dream Theater:
"I'm sick of all you hypocrites"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:09 |
 How can he rate something so obviously amazing a one?!?!
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:13 |
Epignosis wrote:
How can he rate something so obviously amazing a one?!?!
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Not sure, he definitely wasn't being objective.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:31 |
The T wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
While we're talking about subjectivity, I have to admit that my mind rebels when I consider the thought that Beethoven is equal to Nickelback, even though I know that once people start shouting subjectivity subjectivity it gets difficult to prove. Similarly, there are many reviews of Trout Mask Replica which state that there is nothing there and/or Captain Beefheart was trying to make music that nobody would ever actually like (with the implication that all avant fans are fooling themselves into eating sh*t so they feel clever). While I don't think that anybody is obligated to like avant-garde music, even though my sarcastic jokes may cause you to think otherwise, this opinion of course is woefully ignorant of the history of avant-garde music and is also extremely condescending. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing the same thing, but pop music makes me angry enough that I can't really maintain the though.
However, it is possible to achieve a degree of "objectivity" in reviews by considering whether or not people who are different from yourself might like it. Obviously it's not objective in the scientific sense, but it's worth noting as being different from say "This is my opinion and that's it".
rushfan4 wrote:
Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA. Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. |
Well I make fun of you, so I guess I had that one coming. ;-) And you'll never see a DT review from me. I may be petty, but I'm not petty enough to buy an album I'm pretty sure I won't like just so I can give it a negative review and bring down the PA score a fraction of a percent. |
While I agree that pretty much nothing is better than Beethoven (maybe Bach), and ESPECIALLY Nickelback, and while I also agree that it's to easy to throw the "subjectivity" excuse to disguise complete lack of a reason or actual ideas about what one likes or does not like, it's still true that, under specific conditions, subjectivity reigns supreme. Again, we all know that musically, Beethoven is 93872932 miles more advanced, elaborated, complex than most (all?) pop music (including prog and even your beloved avant garde rock here), but for someone, Nickelback might actually be better. Yes. If that someone is looking for a particular something in music that good old Ludwig can't provide but the post-grunge boremasters can, he/she will rightfully declare that, for his purposes and under his circumstances, the Bonn composer has been easily beaten by the Arkansas (or wherever, they look like Arkansas) boys...
After all, in most cases, you can't dance to Beethoven.... (and please people, no smart comments here about how you can actually dance to his music. I'm talking about in the real world with real people). |
Well, I do find Beethoven kind of boring, and I do like Nickelback, although they would most certainly deserve the criticism about being unoriginal and doing/repeating the same thing with each album far more so than DT.
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 13:51 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
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That's an interesting link. I learned from it. It seems to me a very clear description of what is happening (but should not be happening) on PA.
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
Status: Offline
Points: 67407
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 15:27 |
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A Scotsman on a horse!
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 15:55 |
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Dear Sir/Madam
I must object in the strongest possible terms to this endemic Scots bashing that proliferates on your forums. We might be grudging, cantankerous, mean, bad tempered, argumentative, and include 'drinking, fighting and heart disease' as our only national sports, but we Scots would NEVER spell Theatre as Theater and would NEVER have bequeathed to the world a w**k metal band featuring a singer named after a French cheese.
Disgusted Brisbane
PS Bay City Rollers for a new sub genre 'Badly Dressed Prog' ?
PPS MC Hammer was NOT Scottish (the space is very important)
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 16:43 |
This is so AWESOME!!! I love this site......Music is art...PERIOD! Beethoven has been dead for like 4,000 years and people still debate his legacy...Was he a fake?? Did he lip-sync it all..?? 
Although I don't agree with the 1 star rating for BC&SL.....I accept it as the reviewer does not hear what I might hear...I'm fine with that. I don't like many artists here which are regarded as the "prog Gods" of old, but what I respect is the fact that they feel passionate enough about something to make a record for others to hopefully enjoy.
Now I am biased because I will listen to anything (well except for country music) So you will NEVER see me say "I hate it, its horrible, suxs..yada, yada....." If I play it a lot then its a high rating for me........If I download it, then delete it after one listen or give it away (use as coaster, frisbee) then its a low rating for me......I move on.
What I dispise from a reviewer is negativity of an artist....that's not criticism. So I suspect more of these threads will exist in the PA......And that is good!
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: February 25 2010 at 18:14 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Beethoven has been dead for like 4,000 years |
How long are the years in your world? 
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:20 |
Ok guys - points taken. Thanks for responding - I must say that I have missed you guys during my self imposed exile from the site. I'm still angry about the non inclusion of Stratovarius here in PA but what the hell : ). No harm meant - The Silent One, I still don't believe that you meant to give BC&SL a 1 star review but I suppose that I was caught out on my 1 star review of Laterelus by Tool. Can't stand Tool or, for that matter Metallica.
Friends : D ?
Now about Stratovarius .................................................................. LOL
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006
Location: Espoo, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 6442
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:29 |
I've got to comment on this line from your Ride the Lightning review: " Some people believe that this bunch influenced Dream Theater - No!!"
I'm sure you're familiar with DT's version of Master of Puppets, now why would they possibly want to cover that album if there's no influence of any kind involved?
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:47 |
Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing.
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tamijo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 06 2009
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4287
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 05:48 |
The Album is absolutely not a milestone in prog. or music. On the other hand its a good album.
All together it has recived an avrage rating of 68/100 in mainstream music magasines:
Check here :
At PA
1 "Expert" gives 5 stars (rounded up ?)
1 "Expert" gives it 1 star (rounded down ?)
All in all it ends at 3.58, seems high but fair to me takes in to consideration that DT is extreemly popular at PA
Edited by tamijo - February 26 2010 at 05:49
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 07:45 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
I am a Dream Theater fanboy but then I am a fanboy of early Yes, early Genesis, Rush, Camel, Caravan, Riverside etc. Truth be told I am a fanboy of good music. I expect some very volatile answers to my post so don't be embarrassed to respond : )
The reason for my post here is that I just read a review for Dream Theater's Dark clouds and Silver Linings album and, to be honest, half an hour later I am still seething.
Someone who does not recognise good music for what it is should refrain from writing album reviews. No one can blame anyone for not liking a band or an album as that is a personal taste issue but to bash something that clearly has value, regardless of personal preferance, shows an inability to seperate the personal from the facts.
Had DCaSL been released as a debut album by any new Prog act it would have been very well received. It was released by Dream Theater and that is where the review and rating problems start. DT will probably never release another Images and Words purely because they have moved on. Anyone who feels that their latest offering is worth 1 or 2 stars should reconsider their own knowledge of prog music and should refrain from writing reviews - in the same way that anyone who gives 2112, Foxtrot or Brain Salad Surgery 1 or 2 star reviews should keep their reviews to themselves because they show that they don't really know what they are talking about. DCaSL is not a 5 star album - to many it may only warrant 3 - but please! A 1 star review from someone we recognise here as a prog reviewer? I am disappointed to say the least.
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I fail to see any difference between this DT review and your 1 star review of Lateralus (an album which has a higher rating than the DT one).
People in glass houses...
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 09:47 |
Everything is longer in the kingdom of Prog!
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:29 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing. |
Hey Dave... I send a comment to Pablo about this famous review... and tell him it was too drastic, that the album has at least two good songs (for Pablo's standards) and that I do believe saying that the album was poor was too much. I know Pablo knows well the discography of DT and he even loves the Falling into Infinity... so, I won't critizise his rating, just point at the things I'm not agree with but don't try to make him change his mind... he is one of those who likes the non metal part of DT... and that's OK with me... just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...
For instance, I gave 1 star to Undertow of Tool because the production is awful, the sound is horrible, the voice is unmelodic and don't have any direction and the final result is an alternative rock album with some noises here and there and a poor production... but be the EAnima recieve 3 or 4 stars, I don't remember... even if I don't like Tool... I respect their later work because is better...
Now Metallica... is undeniable that their influence is very evident, more in their latest realeses. Train of Thought have Metallica sound everywhere... so... don't make too much trouble about it... start for And Justice for All... that's the album you should have to hear about Metallica...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 11:14 |
jampa17 wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing. |
just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...
For instance, I gave 1 star to Undertow of Tool because the production is awful, the sound is horrible, the voice is unmelodic and don't have any direction and the final result is an alternative rock album with some noises here and there and a poor production... but be the EAnima recieve 3 or 4 stars, I don't remember... even if I don't like Tool... I respect their later work because is better...
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Well, I gave 1 star to Black Clouds & Silven Linings because I didn't find any highlight, there's nothing noteworthy in my opinion.
I generally give 2 stars to an album that I enjoy but I know it's not really good overall.
I'm not sure what's your problem with the 1 star, it seems that it's like a sin for you. It's just a bloody review.
Edited by The Quiet One - February 26 2010 at 11:15
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DJPuffyLemon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 18 2008
Location: L
Status: Offline
Points: 520
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 13:34 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing. |
Just one small thing I want to point out, Metallica wasn't metal's answer to Punk as much as bands like Exodus and Testament were. Those two bands were more thrash metal (which is pretty much punk meets metal) than Metallica was if only because Metallica was always more Progressive Rock styled than the normal thrash band, even with albums like Ride the Lightning and Kill em All (the latter being the only one I could call true thrash). oh also, if there is ANY Marillion in DT, it is in the guitar soloing, but that's really it.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 14:18 |
The Quiet One wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
Dream Theater almost emulate Metallica on one or two numbers so obviously Metallica had an impact on Dream Theater but I pick up no major influence in the music of DT in general. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Dream Theater's major influence was Deep Purple whether DT know it or not themselves.
DT went through a stage of emulating many artists - DP, PF, IM, and yes they did do a Master of Puppets emulation as well. I recall that they have tried a couple of Marillion numbers as well but there is little Marillion influence determined in their work.
Tell you what, Pekka, I'm going to relisten to some of Metallica's albums later today just to see whether I can't bring myself to try and like them. Metallica was the spur - to my mind - for the Extreme Prog Metal outfits and personally I find no merit in that category of music. I think that Punk Rock had a lot to do with Extreme thrash and tech metal. I hated Punk Rock. Metallica, I feel, was Metals answer to Punk at the time when Metal itself was failing. |
just be fair about rating... I'm sure the album deserves better than a single star...
For instance, I gave 1 star to Undertow of Tool because the production is awful, the sound is horrible, the voice is unmelodic and don't have any direction and the final result is an alternative rock album with some noises here and there and a poor production... but be the EAnima recieve 3 or 4 stars, I don't remember... even if I don't like Tool... I respect their later work because is better...
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Well, I gave 1 star to Black Clouds & Silven Linings because I didn't find any highlight, there's nothing noteworthy in my opinion.
I generally give 2 stars to an album that I enjoy but I know it's not really good overall.
I'm not sure what's your problem with the 1 star, it seems that it's like a sin for you. It's just a bloody review. |
Com'n Pablo... just leave it that way... we understand now why so let's close this theme because we are repeating each other once again... and I really don't want to fight with you... really... I do respect you and your opinion in general about prog... let be the peace a guide for us... Ok...??
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 06:43 |
Epignosis wrote:
DavetheSlave wrote:
I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.
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The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one. It cannot be proven or verified. You cannot be objective about your opinion. This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review." That doesn't make any sense. Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like? Here- I'll write one real quick:
Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater. It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records. I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries. John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album. He plays more than one note. The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies. The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade. There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes. Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.
That is an objective review. Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever. Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron. The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.
If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful).
There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star. But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details.
If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly.
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On objectivity... why do reviews by collabs and reviewers have more weight than those by bog-standard members?
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