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micky 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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 Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:36 |
thanks Scott... I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days. That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette  acclaimed? well.. in the spirit of Ivan... let's break that down... remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums.. a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it. Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience... 'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised
between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a
result everything sounds contrived.' 'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images
of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest
killings by some gun-toting psychopath.' 'SPEECHLESS' 'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long' 'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some)
there is one equally crass and stupid' 'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's
"magnum-opus" '
sorry... that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it. Nothing more.. nothing less. That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing. If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't. well.. they haven't. What then makes something legendary.. one of the first thing is standing the test of time. Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years... I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:39 |
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^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:47 |
 The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal. why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 19:53 |
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
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Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? 
Edited by The Quiet One - February 18 2010 at 19:54
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:02 |
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
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Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah. Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them. Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:14 |
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
|
Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah.
Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them.
Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
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Hey, Micky, I never mentioned the word legendary in this discussion with you, just to let you know.
About Metallica and the 80's bands that influenced the 90's and later on Prog Metal bands, you're still not taking my point, hahaha. You're saying that Metallica and Iron Maiden were considered Prog Metal back in their hey-day, it's like to say The Beatles and The Who were Prog bands in the 60's.
My point is just that Images & Words is the album that popularised Prog Metal and it's term. Many bands before Images & Words may have been playing Prog Metal or a style of it, but even if they were popular they were not considered Prog Metal if not Heavy Metal groups.
(changing a bit of subject): And I think there comes the issue when suggesting famous bands that are and were not considered Prog in the general public, like the already mentioned Metallica and Iron Maiden, but also Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and a whole lot of bands that are widely known as hard rock, metal or whatever, but they actually do have Prog leanings, even more than lots of bands that are widely considered as Prog.
Sorry for going off topic at the end, but I think it's a nice conclusion I made, but of course I'm probably not the one that first thought of it, but I'm certainly the first one to popularize it like Images & Words 
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1029
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:20 |
The way I see it, both prog and metal are subgenres of rock. Both were hewn from rock origins (pardon the pun). And now of course, both prog and metal have their own countless subgenres. Hell, punk, new wave, prog, metal, whatever, it can all be traced back to the same roots.
DT didn't get there first, but they certainly helped to popularise the prog metal subgenre. Iron Maiden got there before them. Seventh Son and Somewhere In Time are prog metal, right? And then there's Queensryche, Fates Warning, Watchtower, etc, who arrived a few years before DT did.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Richard House
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 78
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:26 |
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Yes to all the above! Dream Theatre is in the forefront of prog music. It took me 3 listens to "Awake", just to get used to it! I have seen them live 4 times, and they are phenominal! . I play, sing, and listen, have been in the biz for 30 + years and am a N,A,M,M, show veteran, (I worked for Leo and George for 7 years), and have played live all of my life. The individual talents of all the members make the finished product. I wish I had the resources to have a band of my own that worthy. There are so many "wanna be's". and there is the real thing. If you love prog music and are very selective about it, thank god, because you were given an intelligent functioning brain, and need to use it to your best advantage. I am 52 now, and didn't have the direction when I was younger to do what I was meant to do with my life, and serve you all with this knowledge now as a stepping stone to go out and make good music for the thinking masses. We need to keep people thinking and accepting things that are beyond the realm of the ordinary, because this is the essence of life itself! Peace to all, and keep the vibe going. The greatest gift you can give your children, cousins, step siblings, neighbors, is the gift of free and creative thinking, Music is a universal language that breaks these barriers, and lets us all in. We are one earth. one people, and are all EQUAL on the face of the planet.
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Rock is dead. Long live paper and scissors!
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:28 |
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
|
Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah.
Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them.
Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
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Hey, Micky, I never mentioned the word legendary in this discussion with you, just to let you know.
About Metallica and the 80's bands that influenced the 90's and later on Prog Metal bands, you're still not taking my point, hahaha. You're saying that Metallica and Iron Maiden were considered Prog Metal back in their hey-day, it's like to say The Beatles and The Who were Prog bands in the 60's.
My point is just that Images & Words is the album that popularised Prog Metal and it's term. Many bands before Images & Words may have been playing Prog Metal or a style of it, but even if they were popular they were not considered Prog Metal if not Heavy Metal groups.
(changing a bit of subject): And I think there comes the issue when suggesting famous bands that are and were not considered Prog in the general public, like the already mentioned Metallica and Iron Maiden, but also Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and a whole lot of bands that are widely known as hard rock, metal or whatever, but they actually do have Prog leanings, even more than lots of bands that are widely considered as Prog.
Sorry for going off topic at the end, but I think it's a nice conclusion I made, but of course I'm probably not the one that first thought of it, but I'm certainly the first one to popularize it like Images & Words |
Just want to put my two cents in: I agree with Pablo... for the most part. I definitely agree that Metallica and Iron Maiden did not create prog metal at all. These bands can be called "semi-prog metal" on a few albums, and even those albums were released years after prog metal's birth. They were highly influential on progressive metal, but they were not actually prog. As for where I disagree with Pablo, it's about I&W popularizing progressive metal. I will never deny that album's importance, but it is certainly not single-handedly responsible for popularizing prog metal. There were so many influential albums released before that album, such as Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche, Perfect Symmetry by Fates Warning, Energetic Dissassembly by Watchtower, and most of Voivod's albums through the late 80's-early 90's. I&W is one of the most important albums in prog metal, but prog-metal was a full-grown monster by 1992. I don't think prog metal would be the same without that album, but progressive metal had already been popularized by Queensryche. Just my thoughts... -Jeff
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66290
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:31 |
micky wrote:
thanks Scott... I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days. That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette
acclaimed? well.. in the spirit of Ivan... let's break that down...
remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..
a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it. Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...
'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'
'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'
'SPEECHLESS'
'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'
'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'
'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '
sorry... that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it. Nothing more.. nothing less. That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing. If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't. well.. they haven't. What then makes something legendary.. one of the first thing is standing the test of time. Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years... I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary.  And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). 
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:33 |
J-Man wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
|
Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah.
Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them.
Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
|
Hey, Micky, I never mentioned the word legendary in this discussion with you, just to let you know.
About Metallica and the 80's bands that influenced the 90's and later on Prog Metal bands, you're still not taking my point, hahaha. You're saying that Metallica and Iron Maiden were considered Prog Metal back in their hey-day, it's like to say The Beatles and The Who were Prog bands in the 60's.
My point is just that Images & Words is the album that popularised Prog Metal and it's term. Many bands before Images & Words may have been playing Prog Metal or a style of it, but even if they were popular they were not considered Prog Metal if not Heavy Metal groups.
(changing a bit of subject): And I think there comes the issue when suggesting famous bands that are and were not considered Prog in the general public, like the already mentioned Metallica and Iron Maiden, but also Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and a whole lot of bands that are widely known as hard rock, metal or whatever, but they actually do have Prog leanings, even more than lots of bands that are widely considered as Prog.
Sorry for going off topic at the end, but I think it's a nice conclusion I made, but of course I'm probably not the one that first thought of it, but I'm certainly the first one to popularize it like Images & Words |
Just want to put my two cents in:
I agree with Pablo... for the most part. I definitely agree that Metallica and Iron Maiden did not create prog metal at all. These bands can be called "semi-prog metal" on a few albums, and even those albums were released years after prog metal's birth. They were highly influential on progressive metal, but they were not actually prog.
As for where I disagree with Pablo, it's about I&W popularizing progressive metal. I will never deny that album's importance, but it is certainly not single-handedly responsible for popularizing prog metal. There were so many influential albums released before that album, such as Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche, Perfect Symmetry by Fates Warning, Energetic Dissassembly by Watchtower, and most of Voivod's albums through the late 80's-early 90's.
I&W is one of the most important albums in prog metal, but prog-metal was a full-grown monster by 1992. I don't think prog metal would be the same without that album, but progressive metal had already been popularized by Queensryche.
Just my thoughts...
-Jeff
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Yes, you are right there, my fault. I'm no Prog Metal fan nor expert, you know
Anyways, glad we agree on the essential part of my "speech"
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:34 |
rushfan4 wrote:
micky wrote:
thanks Scott... I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days. That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette
acclaimed? well.. in the spirit of Ivan... let's break that down...
remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..
a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it. Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...
'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'
'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'
'SPEECHLESS'
'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'
'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'
'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '
sorry... that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it. Nothing more.. nothing less. That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing. If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't. well.. they haven't. What then makes something legendary.. one of the first thing is standing the test of time. Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years... I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). |
I can relate to the ELP and DT thing. I absolutely love DT, but I dislike most ELP albums (though I moderately enjoy BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus).
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:35 |
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^lol, I don't love any of the two, but I enjoy both in certain doses nonetheless.
Edited by The Quiet One - February 18 2010 at 20:35
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:35 |
The Quiet One wrote:
J-Man wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
|
Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah.
Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them.
Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
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Hey, Micky, I never mentioned the word legendary in this discussion with you, just to let you know.
About Metallica and the 80's bands that influenced the 90's and later on Prog Metal bands, you're still not taking my point, hahaha. You're saying that Metallica and Iron Maiden were considered Prog Metal back in their hey-day, it's like to say The Beatles and The Who were Prog bands in the 60's.
My point is just that Images & Words is the album that popularised Prog Metal and it's term. Many bands before Images & Words may have been playing Prog Metal or a style of it, but even if they were popular they were not considered Prog Metal if not Heavy Metal groups.
(changing a bit of subject): And I think there comes the issue when suggesting famous bands that are and were not considered Prog in the general public, like the already mentioned Metallica and Iron Maiden, but also Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and a whole lot of bands that are widely known as hard rock, metal or whatever, but they actually do have Prog leanings, even more than lots of bands that are widely considered as Prog.
Sorry for going off topic at the end, but I think it's a nice conclusion I made, but of course I'm probably not the one that first thought of it, but I'm certainly the first one to popularize it like Images & Words |
Just want to put my two cents in:
I agree with Pablo... for the most part. I definitely agree that Metallica and Iron Maiden did not create prog metal at all. These bands can be called "semi-prog metal" on a few albums, and even those albums were released years after prog metal's birth. They were highly influential on progressive metal, but they were not actually prog.
As for where I disagree with Pablo, it's about I&W popularizing progressive metal. I will never deny that album's importance, but it is certainly not single-handedly responsible for popularizing prog metal. There were so many influential albums released before that album, such as Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche, Perfect Symmetry by Fates Warning, Energetic Dissassembly by Watchtower, and most of Voivod's albums through the late 80's-early 90's.
I&W is one of the most important albums in prog metal, but prog-metal was a full-grown monster by 1992. I don't think prog metal would be the same without that album, but progressive metal had already been popularized by Queensryche.
Just my thoughts...
-Jeff
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Yes, you are right there, my fault. I'm no Prog Metal fan nor expert, you know
Anyways, glad we agree on the essential part of my "speech" |
We knew we would agree on something eventually!
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:37 |
J-Man wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
J-Man wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
micky wrote:
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, almost with everything, but you can't denie that Images & Words was the In the Court of the Crimson King for Prog Metal. Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularised it and damn, it was a good one. |
damn right I deny it..... want the 'ITCOTCK' of prog metal... look beyond ... to groups this site has real problems idenitifying because they don't fit the same old same old that typifies TODAYS prog metal.
why do you think Metallica ... Iron Maiden are here? Groups FAR.. FAR more influential to prog metal than DT. Some.. many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's.
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Yes, but Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced future Prog Metal, just like The Beatles, The Who, and all of the Proto-Prog bands influenced future Prog bands. Of course, we can argue if The Beatles or Metallica aren't actually Prog in some point. But that's not the point, since what I said was this:
"Sure, not the first Prog Metal album, but the one that popularized it" You've said this:
"many would argue the genesis of real prog metal goes back even further into the 70's"
That isn't the point I stated, is it, Micky? |
actually it is the point I made... or wanted to hahah.
Iron Maiden and Metallica influenced prog metal... by taking what groups like Uriah Heep and Judas Priest started... and made.. voila.. prog metal. Did they influence it... damn right.. by each making albums that you all would want to attribute to the likes of DT. Prog Metal albums that not only created modern prog metal... but populariized it.. and in the course of it.. inspired many (LIKE Dream Theater) to follow them.
Dream Theater found it's own popularity with I&W... they got on MTV.. whooptie... does anyone really think that people weren't aware of prog metal before that. That album made DT popular... and yes inspried a lot of clones. Is that what people want to call legendary now... to me... that is simply a measure of popularity.
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Hey, Micky, I never mentioned the word legendary in this discussion with you, just to let you know.
About Metallica and the 80's bands that influenced the 90's and later on Prog Metal bands, you're still not taking my point, hahaha. You're saying that Metallica and Iron Maiden were considered Prog Metal back in their hey-day, it's like to say The Beatles and The Who were Prog bands in the 60's.
My point is just that Images & Words is the album that popularised Prog Metal and it's term. Many bands before Images & Words may have been playing Prog Metal or a style of it, but even if they were popular they were not considered Prog Metal if not Heavy Metal groups.
(changing a bit of subject): And I think there comes the issue when suggesting famous bands that are and were not considered Prog in the general public, like the already mentioned Metallica and Iron Maiden, but also Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and a whole lot of bands that are widely known as hard rock, metal or whatever, but they actually do have Prog leanings, even more than lots of bands that are widely considered as Prog.
Sorry for going off topic at the end, but I think it's a nice conclusion I made, but of course I'm probably not the one that first thought of it, but I'm certainly the first one to popularize it like Images & Words |
Just want to put my two cents in:
I agree with Pablo... for the most part. I definitely agree that Metallica and Iron Maiden did not create prog metal at all. These bands can be called "semi-prog metal" on a few albums, and even those albums were released years after prog metal's birth. They were highly influential on progressive metal, but they were not actually prog.
As for where I disagree with Pablo, it's about I&W popularizing progressive metal. I will never deny that album's importance, but it is certainly not single-handedly responsible for popularizing prog metal. There were so many influential albums released before that album, such as Operation Mindcrime by Queensryche, Perfect Symmetry by Fates Warning, Energetic Dissassembly by Watchtower, and most of Voivod's albums through the late 80's-early 90's.
I&W is one of the most important albums in prog metal, but prog-metal was a full-grown monster by 1992. I don't think prog metal would be the same without that album, but progressive metal had already been popularized by Queensryche.
Just my thoughts...
-Jeff
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Yes, you are right there, my fault. I'm no Prog Metal fan nor expert, you know
Anyways, glad we agree on the essential part of my "speech" |
We knew we would agree on something eventually!
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AT LAST!
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66290
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:38 |
J-Man wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
micky wrote:
thanks Scott... I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days. That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette
acclaimed? well.. in the spirit of Ivan... let's break that down...
remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..
a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it. Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...
'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'
'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'
'SPEECHLESS'
'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'
'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'
'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '
sorry... that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it. Nothing more.. nothing less. That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing. If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't. well.. they haven't. What then makes something legendary.. one of the first thing is standing the test of time. Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years... I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). |
I can relate to the ELP and DT thing. I absolutely love DT, but I dislike most ELP albums (though I moderately enjoy BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus).
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I hate to pull the age card, but I find very few PAers under 30 who like ELP, aside from maybe 1 album or 2. There will be those who like their debut and nothing else or Tarkus and nothing else, but most of the younger members seem to hate ELP.
*ducks* as every unusual case will now respond that they are under 30 and like ELP*
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:40 |
The Quiet One wrote:
^lol, I don't love any of the two, but I enjoy both in certain doses nonetheless. |
I love the "concept" of ELP's music, if that makes any sense. The musicianship is fantastic. Keith Emerson is one of the all-time greatest keyboard players. The solos are excellent. .... But the songwriting is way below my standards. When I'm in the mood for Hammond Organ, ELP will always come on, but I always feel like something's missing. Most of the compositions are just scattered and lacking in coherence IMO. I love extended soloing (as evidenced by my DT obsession), but for ELP it just never gets anywhere. Sorry for going even further off topic
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:42 |
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^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:43 |
Scott, I can assure you there's much more to RPI than a bunch of ELP clones. Or clones of anyone for that matter. Maybe that's not what you meant.....  The English certainly influenced RPI, particularly VDGG I would say, but there's more to it. Calling them clones is not accurate.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:44 |
rushfan4 wrote:
J-Man wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
micky wrote:
thanks Scott... I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days. That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette
acclaimed? well.. in the spirit of Ivan... let's break that down...
remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..
a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it. Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...
'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'
'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'
'SPEECHLESS'
'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'
'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'
'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '
sorry... that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it. Nothing more.. nothing less. That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing. If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't. well.. they haven't. What then makes something legendary.. one of the first thing is standing the test of time. Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years... I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.
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If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are. Yeah if Ivan said this, Or Sean Trane said that. Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason. My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite. I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense. The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them. I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises. And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater. Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's. (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). |
I can relate to the ELP and DT thing. I absolutely love DT, but I dislike most ELP albums (though I moderately enjoy BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus).
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I hate to pull the age card, but I find very few PAers under 30 who like ELP, aside from maybe 1 album or 2. There will be those who like their debut and nothing else or Tarkus and nothing else, but most of the younger members seem to hate ELP.
*ducks* as every unusual case will now respond that they are under 30 and like ELP* |
I'm confident that's not it. How many teenage kids do you know that would rather listen to Genesis, Yes, Rush, Dream Theater, Marillion, Neal Morse, and The Flower Kings instead of Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, and Eminem? Not that many. It's just that I'm not crazy about ELP (neither is my dad, who's in his 40's )
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
DT... already a prog legend?
