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Syzygy 
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 Posted: November 25 2007 at 18:21 |
 Spydrfish wrote:
Jace wrote:
Hi,
I am looking to find bands that have made songs that are longer than forty minutes or even up to 75 minutes. Do you know of any bands beside Flower Kings who do that?
Thanks,
Jace |
Porcupine tree, Moonloop (unedited) 40 minutes
Edge of sanity Crimson 1 & 2, 40 and 43 minutes
Echolyn mei 49 min
Green carnation light of day...day of darkness 60 min
Fantomas, Delirium cordia 74 min
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True, but the last 30 minutes or so is just the sound of a stuck record needle. Still an excellent album, though.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Dean
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 18:43 |
Spydrfish wrote:
darqdean wrote:
I'm amazed to think that so many people believe that bands sit down and write filler, or deliberately load-up an album with worthless, throw away, second-rate songs just to make it longer. That's such a bizzare attitude, sure, Top-40 one-hit wonders produced by Simon Cowell would probably do that since most of their sales are singles-based and albums are of secondary importance, but no one in the album-based Prog world would do that, it doesn't make sense.
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Filler tracks seemed to be more of a problem with older prog bands, Yes's fragile had 4, Emerson lake and palmer had quite a few wich actually became hits... Though short songs don't always mean filler. With the old albums that originally had epics on one side of the record and such, Some tracks on the other side of the record seemed to be written half heartedly. |
The short Yes and ELP tracks you are refering to are not "filler" in the classical sense of being uninspired songs written to fill-up an album, but were more musical interludes that added colour and texture to the albums.
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What?
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micky
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 18:52 |
darqdean wrote:
Spydrfish wrote:
darqdean wrote:
I'm amazed to think
that so many people believe that bands sit down and write filler, or
deliberately load-up an album with worthless, throw
away, second-rate songs just to make it longer. That's such a
bizzare attitude, sure, Top-40 one-hit wonders produced by Simon Cowell
would probably do that since most of their sales are
singles-based and albums are of secondary importance, but no one
in the album-based Prog world would do that, it doesn't make sense. |
Filler tracks seemed to be more of a problem with older prog
bands, Yes's fragile had 4, Emerson lake and palmer had quite a few
wich actually became hits... Though short songs don't always mean
filler. With the old albums that originally had epics on one side of
the record and such, Some tracks on the other side of the
record seemed to be written half heartedly. |
The short Yes and ELP tracks you are refering to are not "filler"
in the classical sense of being uninspired songs written to fill-up an
album, but were more musical interludes that added colour and texture
to the albums. |
exactly Dean 
For ELP at least.. it is well documented that those 'filler' songs as
people call them were exactly intended to give texture and specifically
lighten the mood after being bludgeoned after monster tracks like
Tarkus, and Toccata
on the subject... would love to remember the clown who took stars away
from Per Un Amico because it was too short... the same kind of
fool that would downgrade an album for having too much filler I
guess hahahha.
Edited by micky - November 25 2007 at 18:53
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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jimmy_row
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 21:18 |
^^many a reviewer has given Selling England by the Pound 4 stars because of More Fool Me....ignore the song and you still have around 50 minutes of material, most of which is undeniably 5-star material. I won't even get into that f word that rhymes with killer....
Agreed on Per un Amico, I'd much rather have a short album that leaves me wanting more than something drawn out that has me counting the minutes until it's over.
Let me throw some clappies at Micky and Dean 
because those fi**er tracks bring a lot to the table...I've said it before, Benny the Bouncer is a great track.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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micky
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:12 |
jimmy_row wrote:
^^many a reviewer has given Selling England by the
Pound 4 stars because of More Fool Me....ignore the song and you still
have around 50 minutes of material, most of which is undeniably 5-star
material. I won't even get into that f word that rhymes with
killer....
Agreed on Per un Amico, I'd much rather have a short album that
leaves me wanting more than something drawn out that has me counting
the minutes until it's over.
Let me throw some clappies at Micky and Dean
because those fi**er tracks bring a lot to the table...I've said it before, Benny the Bouncer is a great track. |
thanks.. I love clappies  
as far as More Fool Me.. if I was to review that album I would give it
5 stars (the only Genesis album IMO to rate it btw) in spite of
it. It is sort of like Geddy Lee and Rush... sure Rush might have
sounded better with say.... me singing.. but you know.. it just
wouldn't be RUSH. without it. The same with SEbtP. Find me an album..
and I don't think you can... outiside of CttE that is letter
perfect. Some times the little imperfections makes the
perfections just seem so much greater. I made a similar point in
an ELP thread, again regarding the filler, if ELP made an album
consisting of 40 odd minutes of Tarkus like material the whole effect
of it would be lost upon people. WIthout context.. without texture as
Dean puts it.. you CAN become numb and the brilliance potentially lost.
My favorite example of that.. is one of my favorite of all prog
albums.. Balletto di Bronzo's YS... after 40 mintues of
being musically skullf*cked. .you are sort of left numb.. and the
greatness of what you have just heard... can sometimes be missed.
Edited by micky - November 25 2007 at 22:14
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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jimmy_row
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:32 |
Amen, I think you've hit on why I'm not a big fan of Ys...skullf**king is a good word for it  perhaps and understatement and ELP would fall victim to the same if they didn't mix it up from time to time. IMO, BSS and Selling England are as "letter perfect" as Close to the Edge...sure CttE doesn't deviate from the true "prog form", but that makes it too predictable in a sense. I'd just as easily take SEbtP, where you jump around a little more...and to be honest, More Fool Me is a successful little song to me - I'm sure that people would have a much different view of it if Phil hadn't "taken over" later on. I don't think you can really judge a record against "perfection", becuase there is always some way that it could have been better...take away I Know What I Like and More Fool Me and add another Cinema Show: well then why don't we go a step farther and tidy up Epping Forrest a bit...and give Hackett some more bits, etc, etc, the same could be said of CttE, maybe a few less repititions of that incessant riff on Siberian Khatru, and so on. The changes I would make are different to the changes you would make, and so there is no real "perfection" in any sense, and album must be weighed against itself and against the work of contemporaries, not the idea of what could have been (but damnit, Passion Play could have been sooo good!).
*lots of ideas...not enough time to develop 'em all...More clappies are in order if you can extract any coherance from this post  Good discussion nonetheless.
Edited by jimmy_row - November 25 2007 at 22:32
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Points: 37575
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:37 |
I have noticed that people use the word "filler" in different ways. More Fool Me is not a filler track, (it would be the highlight of a PC album), but it is out of place (or even out of pace) on SEBTP. For me, filler tracks are more often found on singles rather than albums... I mean how many remixes of the same track does any one really need?
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What?
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micky
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:39 |
jimmy_row wrote:
Amen, I think you've hit on why I'm not a big fan of Ys...skullf**king is a good word for it
perhaps and understatement and ELP would fall victim to the same if
they didn't mix it up from time to time. IMO, BSS and Selling
England are as "letter perfect" as Close to the Edge...sure CttE
doesn't deviate from the true "prog form", but that makes it too
predictable in a sense. I'd just as easily take SEbtP, where you
jump around a little more...and to be honest, More Fool Me is a
successful little song to me - I'm sure that people would have a much
different view of it if Phil hadn't "taken over" later on. I
don't think you can really judge a record against "perfection", becuase
there is always some way that it could have been
better...take away I Know What I Like and More Fool Me and add another
Cinema Show: well then why don't we go a step farther and tidy up
Epping Forrest a bit...and give Hackett some more bits, etc, etc, the
same could be said of CttE, maybe a few less repititions of that
incessant riff on Siberian Khatru, and so on. The changes I would
make are different to the changes you would make, and so there is no
real "perfection" in any sense, and album must be weighed against
itself and against the work of contemporaries, not the idea of what
could have been (but damnit, Passion Play could have been sooo
good!).
*lots of ideas...not enough time to develop 'em all...More
clappies are in order if you can extract any coherance from this post Good discussion nonetheless. |
give me half a clappie... and when you have some time to develop what
you started touching on.... do so.. I 'd be curious to see where
you finish.. because I like what you started.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:42 |
darqdean wrote:
I have noticed that people use the word "filler" in different ways. More Fool Me
is not a filler track, (it would be the highlight of a PC album), but
it is out of place (or even out of pace) on SEBTP. For me, filler
tracks are more often found on singles rather than albums... I mean how
many remixes of the same track does any one really need? |
exactly.... people do.. and usually for songs that the prog snob
think are unworthy of being on a prog album... but whether intended or
not.... I think it does work well on the album. It is out of
place... and pace.. and sometimes that is not a bad thing in my book.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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jimmy_row
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:46 |
I'll put it on my things to do list....along with writing reviews
In the mean time, you get two cheesy stars, the equivalent of .5 clappies
Peace.
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Signature Writers Guild on strike
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micky
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Posted: November 25 2007 at 22:51 |
jimmy_row wrote:
I'll put it on my things to do list....along with writing reviews
In the mean time, you get two cheesy stars, the equivalent of .5 clappies
Peace. |
have a good night brother... and I should be heading off myself...my 4
day weekend is about over and soon back to the bad side of kissing my
bosses asses and trying not to electrocute myself while daydreaming
about much more pleasant things..people.. and places 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MadcapLaughs84
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Location: Mexico
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 00:11 |
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I have to agree with The T, I also think that sometimes enough is enough, I think 60 minutes is good enough to project someone's feelings IMHO
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ghost_of_morphy
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 03:04 |
micky wrote:
Find me an album.. and I don't think you can... outiside of CttE that is letter perfect. |
Even there, we can find a small flaw or two if we look hard enough. That "Coins and crosses" break comes to mind. It's just too noisy. I prefer the more mellow part that Anderson uses when he performs it solo.
And I still think that albums were more likely to include substandard material back in the Vinyl Age.
Edited by ghost_of_morphy - November 26 2007 at 03:05
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micky
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 06:36 |
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
And I still think that albums were more likely to include substandard material back in the Vinyl Age. |
had to read that twice to make sure I read that correctly...
more likely?.... more likely that trying to expand finite musical ideas into 75 or 80 minute album rather than 40 or 45.
that doesn't make sense on the face of it..
care to ellaborate? You have me curious there
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 06:54 |
jimmy_row wrote:
^^many a reviewer has given Selling England by the Pound 4 stars because of More Fool Me....ignore the song and you still have around 50 minutes of material, most of which is undeniably 5-star material. I won't even get into that f word that rhymes with killer....
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On the subject of SEbtPand the notorious "More Fool Me", I'd gladly refer you to my definition of 'flawed masterpiece', which I especially use in relation to such albums as BSS and SEbtP. Unlike, for instance, CttE or even Thick as a Brick, these albums are not perfect, but they are much more than the simple sum of their parts. Nowadays, some albums really do go on forever, and in my opinion that causes a bigger problem than just an abundance of filler material. At least in my case, it has a lot to do with attention span - I've noticed that when listening to albums such as Tool's Lateralus or DT's Awake, my attention tends to drift away big time, until I can hardly remember what I'm listening to.
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jmcdaniel_ee
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 09:06 |
I think the whole issue with filler is it is a reflection of it's creators' taste (or lack thereof). When a group (general consesus implied) of interior designers can all agree that a room is poorly decorated, chances are high that it's because somethings in the room don't seem to belong--not that there wasn't enough decorative stuff in the room. When someone in a creative role throws in everything including the kitchen sink, there's a good chance that it just comes across like haphazard mish-mash. Perhapse some people still like that, but the concept remains that it takes more skill and talent to excercise some tastefull culling when necessary than to just throw every idea that you've recently worked on together on a CD.
It's not that I can't spare the 3 minutes that it takes to listen to More Fool Me, it's more of an issue of does it detract from the flow of the album? What is it's purpose in the grand scheme of SEbtP? I'm not trying to answer the questions, I'm just posing them as examples of why the inclusion of some things is questioned.
I think the same thing can be said about classical music, especially from the classical period. I think a lot of composers were inundated with the idea that a symphony had to be so long, so you have a lot of overdone ideas, and if you don't like the way this movement is going, then you'll have to wait another 10 minutes or so for something different. Classical music definitely has some timeless and undisputed masterpieces, but the music that doesn't work well definitely will not retain someone's interest for long--I could be spending this time listening to Close to Edge instead.
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jimmy_row
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 09:35 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
jimmy_row wrote:
^^many a reviewer has given Selling England by the Pound 4 stars because of More Fool Me....ignore the song and you still have around 50 minutes of material, most of which is undeniably 5-star material. I won't even get into that f word that rhymes with killer....
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On the subject of SEbtPand the notorious "More Fool Me", I'd gladly refer you to my definition of 'flawed masterpiece', which I especially use in relation to such albums as BSS and SEbtP. Unlike, for instance, CttE or even Thick as a Brick, these albums are not perfect, but they are much more than the simple sum of their parts.
Nowadays, some albums really do go on forever, and in my opinion that causes a bigger problem than just an abundance of filler material. At least in my case, it has a lot to do with attention span - I've noticed that when listening to albums such as Tool's Lateralus or DT's Awake, my attention tends to drift away big time, until I can hardly remember what I'm listening to.
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I like that term, "flawed masterpiece", I immediately think of Days of Future Passed or Tales from Topographic Oceans - albums with a sizeable problem, but their importance overshadows it.
...but I think I'd rather have 3 minutes of More Fool Me than 6 of the 9 on Siberian Khatru, they run that sucker into the ground...so we're entering into subjective territory, that's what I was getting at earlier. You could say the same about Thick as a Brick, there's two or three sections on it that aren't quite up to par with the rest...so what exactly is a flaw? I tend to be more forgiving of an album if there is enough material outside the "flaw" like on SEbtP. Now if you substituted The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles for Geranio on Per un Amico, it would be harder to stomach because the record is only 30-33 minutes as is.
I can definately relate to the attention issue (I often chalk it up to my ADD ), they say that the typical human attention span is 40-55 minutes (slightly longer for women than men and children), so an 80 minute album on first listen is going to be an endurance test. I can remember trying to listen to The Human Equation in one go when I first got it....must've taken 2 or 3 naps, each time I'd wake up and think, "It's still not over?!" It's one beast of an album...I'm not even sure if you have 120 minutes of good material if it's worth it the cram all of it on one album...set it aside and let it develop more. I think some bands these days are less patient to let compositions unfold because they feel pressure to come up with 70-80 minutes of music...and thus we don't see an 'album per year' the way it was in the '60s and '70s.
Edited by jimmy_row - November 26 2007 at 09:37
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salmacis
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 11:37 |
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I'll tell you my perspective on 'More Fool Me', and why I think SEBTP is the pinnacle of the genre (alongside, yes, CTTE). Every long track on SEBTP is followed by a shorter one and I think that works perfectly. A problem I encounter with modern prog CDs is the lack of 'breathing space', and you could technically say the same about 'Tales From Topographic Oceans'- there is just too much, with epic after epic after epic. With SEBTP, there is a perfect structure to the album, IMHO.
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ghost_of_morphy
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 17:51 |
micky wrote:
ghost_of_morphy wrote:
And I still think that albums were more likely to include substandard material back in the Vinyl Age. |
had to read that twice to make sure I read that correctly...
more likely?.... more likely that trying to expand finite musical ideas into 75 or 80 minute album rather than 40 or 45
that doesn't make sense on the face of it..
care to ellaborate? You have me curious there
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Yep, I'll elaborate. Back in the vinyl age, unless you were a big name hell-bent on producing yourself, you were signed to a multiple album contract by one of the big 5 record companies. Music sales were album oriented and became even more so with the decline of the 45 in the '70's, but still the main exposure of a successful band's work remained FM radio singles. This led to a situation where a band's sales of 8-10 songs were really determined in a large part by the success of three or four songs. Throw in the insane pressure to release albums as quickly as possible that prevailed in the first half of the '70's and the last half of the '60's and you get a lot of crap included. Of course, a lot of you will object to the word crap, so let's just politely call them tracks that seemed like a good idea at the time.
About two decades ago, various factors (the rise of independent artists, the rise of urban music, cheap recording, and the internet), began chipping away at the traditional album production and distribution methods. Groups that followed the old model found those albums marginalized. Pressure grew on groups to increase the quality of the whole album.
Although I can think of a lot of examples, these changes probably had less of an effect on prog, which was album oriented and bucking the FM oriented scene to begin with. Stil, I imagine that a close examination of what was released in the '70's compared to what is released today will show that album quality has indeed improved.
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Dean
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Posted: November 26 2007 at 18:04 |
^ but this is a Prog site and we are discussing Prog albums, hence through-out the 70s from a Prog perspective, albums were the be all and end all of producing music. Few Progs band released singles and they had no effect on album sales. A Prog band would not put substandard material on an album to fill-up space because it would go against the whole ethos of producing the album in the first place.
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What?
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I'm tired of (most) 79 minute albums!
