Genesis/Yes comparison

LOSENDOS - In reply to your comments about Genesis - ATOTT - great album.  But parts of Cryme and Foxtrot bore me - Absent Friends, Harold, Can-Utility, Timetable plus parts of Supper Ready.  But there are some real gems - Fountain and the brilliant Watcher.

 

TFTO though is like a classical Album - the return to the underlying musical theme for each side but using different musical tones, instruments.

 

Overall I am more a YES fan but I think its because Genesis lost its way in the 80's and 90's by been more POPPY - were YES in the majority of cases retained the Progressive theme

Flying Dutchman wrote:   Overall, the two bands are almost equal IMO: at their best, they're about impossible to beat.  However, I prefer Yes by abit, mostly because of there more serious nature, and there subject matter (majestic stuff, Battles and such.)  What about you guys?

on the other hand I think in a lot of cases Genesis' lyrical material is more pertinent as reflections of society. They give social commentary and criticism which I think is a lot more relavent than majestic battles and such. So would majestic battles really be all that more serious? I mean just look at power metal (and some of those power metal guys do take that stuff seriously). On the other hand, Genesis shows that they're not afraid to have fun while commenting and criticizing society which is serious, but their having fun with it. So that's an interesting way to look at it.

Anyway I think Yes is absolutely fantastic but I like Genesis more.

[/QUOTE]
I would understand what you mean in full if I felt that it were these bands
truly progressive periods that garnered them this status. As I said before,
I have yet to hear Gabriel era Genesis (which is the Genesis we focus on in
these forums to a dominating degree) over Collins or Gabriel's solo work.

 

I don't really see how you are disagreeing with me, (which may be my fault because I tend to argue both sides against the middle.) It is the Gabriel era Genesis that grants the band their cult status and contributions to progressive rock.  Supper's Ready is one of the most important early prog works. And whether you like it or not,coming to grips with its meaning grants you a unique insight into the narrative of early prog. Same with Floyd.  It was the popular success of Dark Side and The Wall that brought them their popularity. But there works, esp Wish You Were Here really outlined the narrative of progressive rock in a very accessible way.

Their stadium status grants Genesis and Floyd their popularity.  Same with Yes, Tull and ELP but more so with Floyd and Genesis because, as you stated, their stadium years were years that they were doing music that was not as progressive as their earlier works.  

There is the contradiction in progressive rock of the 1970s.  It has an avant-garde attitude but many of its key players wanted to be popular songwriters and this is what I was trying to address. Some spoke out against the popular music industry, misuse of power, greed and materialism in modernity but were guilty of the same moral infractions. There is room for fans to feel a bit of moral outrage in that.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Stave Hackett.  "Music is not about competition." Simply put. Ultimately, it was the money and the competition it brought, that paved the way for progs downfall in the 1970s.

 

 

ken4musiq wrote: One of my favorite quotes comes from Stave Hackett.  "Music is not about competition." Simply put. Ultimately, it was the money and the competition it brought, that paved the way for progs downfall in the 1970s.

I suppose I just fail to see the scales tipped as such in my boys' (Genesis')
favor. Isnt there another thread going right now on how uncharcteristic
and unprecedented an upset it is that the top album in the sitewide poll
belongs to Genesis rather then Yes anyhow? The proof is in the perverbial
pudding. People normally vote yes to Yes!! PInk Floyd I absolutely
understand, the import and gentle while still somehow menacing quality
of their mid period 70s albums obviously took them above and beyond
any progger's expectation for celebrity (if you want to label them as true
progressive many in these ranks might not get behind the dialogue.)
As for Genesis, I just have a hard time seeing how their earlier,
progressive works have instilled as much of a legacy on popular culture
as Yes' output during their 'classic' period. No one is contesting that
'Invisible Touch' outsold 'Close to the Edge' by some nations' national
deficit. I don't see how that should factor into the bands fanciful,
symphonic past being similarly bloated into public recognition as their
80s pop output. If anything, my feeling has always been the success of
later period Genesis moved their earlier works even FURTHER from the
public's scope of consumption, if not overshadowing it entirely. You
might think it would provide a linking back effect and that album sales for
your 'Foxtrot's' and 'Selling England's' would be stimulated. I'm sure
there's been some trickle, but the indellible stamp Collins' Genesis had on
the band's past is so blaringly obvious to me, I have a hard time reflecting
on how, again, MY genesis became overrated. Yes outshined Genesis in
the early to mid 70s strictly commercially speaking by miles. And in the
canons of progressive rock, Yes have always been mentioned before any
other band in my experience, often times Genesis' admission a secondary
or nonexistent one due to the (IMO) dwindling of the mythic, progressive
qualities their own 80s fluff curtailed.

Long story short, I see what you mean about Floyd, but as these Yes vs.
Genesis threads have often boiled down to, people find Yes' brand of
prog more accesible and more 'classic' sounding (hence it always being
played on classic rock radio) then Genesis who while still crafting some
endearingly memorable melodies failed to have a 'hit' appeal during their
progressive years. In fact, Tony Banks admits that up till Gabriel's
departure, the band would write songs intuitively which, if later pointed
out to have hit appeal, would be intentionally scrapped. That sounds like
obstinate, intentional obscurity to me. And in a way, I cherish that
approach if it yielded those kind of results!
If I start hearing 'The Lamb' or even 'I know what I like' (or, god forbid, a
'Cinema Show') on classic rock radio AT ALL, I might start seeing your
point.

Edited by dojonane

Members

Gabriel v. Jon Anderson: Without a doubt, Peter Gabriel

Steve Howe v. Steve Hackett: Close call, both very atmospheric.  If I had to choose, it would be Howe but only just.

Rutherford v. Squire: For individual bass playing ability I would go for Squire but Rutherford's style lends itself more to the music - the purveyor of the Taurus Bass pedal !  Rutherford for me.

Banks v. Wakeman: Genesis keys were a key ingredient and as I slightly prefer the Genesis sound all round it would have to be Banks.

Collins v. Bruford v. White: Bill Bruford - the best technical prog drummer.

Albums (Classic albums only)

Trespass v. Yes Album- The Yes album.  Yes had nutured into a fully fledged prog outfit at this point while Genesis were still on the learning curve.

Nursery Cryme v. Fragile- Fragile.  Simply because it's my most memorable Yes album.

Foxtrot v. Close to the Edge- Foxtrot.  The 1st Genesis classic.

Selling England v. Relayer- Selling England.  Not much can beat this !  Quite harsh to put it up against Relayer !

Lamb Lies Down v. Tales- The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway - my top Genesis album

Edited by Garbs

Fragile wrote: Genesis fan boy.Foxtrot better than CTTE it's good but it's not that good. According to you!!!! Gabriel and Banks better than Anderson and Wakemen highly debatable.With Gabriel I can understand he is a great front man but not a better singer According to you!!!! .Wakeman is by far the better musician only Emerson comes close. According to you!!!! As for your other this v that it is very close to call.CTTE is my fave album of all time with The Lamb a very close second. According to you!!!! When will people learn that everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and that this doesn't make you necesarilly a fanboy. But even more important, when will people learn that not everything we don''t like is overrated? Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

IMO:


Jon Anderson   >   Peter Gabriel
Steve Howe     >   Steve Hackett
Rick Wakeman  >   Tony Banks
Chris Squire      >   Mike Rutherford
Bill Bruford        >   Phil Collins


Yes Album  >    Trespass
Fragile        <    Nursery Cryme
CttE           >    Foxtrot
Relayer       =    Selling England
TFTO         =    Lamb Lies Down



Funny how that works isn't it?






Edited by White Queen

[/QUOTE]
I suppose I just fail to see the scales tipped as such in my boys' (Genesis')
favor. Isnt there another thread going right now on how uncharcteristic
and unprecedented an upset it is that the top album in the sitewide poll
belongs to Genesis rather then Yes anyhow? The proof is in the perverbial
pudding. People normally vote yes to Yes!! PInk Floyd I absolutely
understand, the import and gentle while still somehow menacing quality
of their mid period 70s albums obviously took them above and beyond
any progger's expectation for celebrity (if you want to label them as true
progressive many in these ranks might not get behind the dialogue.)
As for Genesis, I just have a hard time seeing how their earlier,
progressive works have instilled as much of a legacy on popular culture
as Yes' output during their 'classic' period. No one is contesting that
'Invisible Touch' outsold 'Close to the Edge' by some nations' national
deficit. I don't see how that should factor into the bands fanciful,
symphonic past being similarly bloated into public recognition as their
80s pop output. If anything, my feeling has always been the success of
later period Genesis moved their earlier works even FURTHER from the
public's scope of consumption, if not overshadowing it entirely. You
might think it would provide a linking back effect and that album sales for
your 'Foxtrot's' and 'Selling England's' would be stimulated. I'm sure
there's been some trickle, but the indellible stamp Collins' Genesis had on
the band's past is so blaringly obvious to me, I have a hard time reflecting
on how, again, MY genesis became overrated. Yes outshined Genesis in
the early to mid 70s strictly commercially speaking by miles. And in the
canons of progressive rock, Yes have always been mentioned before any
other band in my experience, often times Genesis' admission a secondary
or nonexistent one due to the (IMO) dwindling of the mythic, progressive
qualities their own 80s fluff curtailed.

Long story short, I see what you mean about Floyd, but as these Yes vs.
Genesis threads have often boiled down to, people find Yes' brand of
prog more accesible and more 'classic' sounding (hence it always being
played on classic rock radio) then Genesis who while still crafting some
endearingly memorable melodies failed to have a 'hit' appeal during their
progressive years. In fact, Tony Banks admits that up till Gabriel's
departure, the band would write songs intuitively which, if later pointed
out to have hit appeal, would be intentionally scrapped. That sounds like
obstinate, intentional obscurity to me. And in a way, I cherish that
approach if it yielded those kind of results!
If I start hearing 'The Lamb' or even 'I know what I like' (or, god forbid, a
'Cinema Show') on classic rock radio AT ALL, I might start seeing your
point.[/QUOTE]

 

It is sometimes hard to state a point without overstating it.  My favorite band is ELP, whom I prefer to either Yes or Genesis.  I'm a fan in that sense as you are a Genesis fan and others are Yes fans.  Yes is certainly represented well but ELP is not so certainly ELP is underated from that perspective. Perhaps the new book on ELP by Ed Macan coming out in April will remedy that. I would like to see more recognition for the contribution of Brain Salad Surgery, which is as important as The Court, Foxtrot, Thick as a Brick or any classic prog album.  I don't like the fact that ELP's relevence is being written out of prog history. The question as to why lies in how people feel about popularity and also sarcasm, satire and humor in music. They love satire in Floyd because it is so serious, but hate it in ELP.  You listen to Wish You Were Here and feel like slitting your wrists, but ELP talks about the same thing with humor and adds Benny the Bouncer to the mix. 

I think that where we can agree is that popularity should not designate how we listen to music or feel about the music we like and if anything this is what I was saying and trying to make a point about the avant-garde/popular contradition in classic prog. Your quote about Banks is interesting, as the reality that Genesis classic period does not fair well on classic rock radio, which I agree certainly does speak in their favor.  I think the Banks quote is questinable because songs like "I Know What I Like" do have a certain commercial appeal and even Watcher of the Skies could have been a hit. I have also read quotes from the band that said the opposite, that indeed they were trying to find a popular voice. Then beautiful thing about these bands is that they are all unique.  If finding that voice would have meant Genesis' losing their uniqueness, I am glad they steered from it. The only reason why some early Genesis songs were not a hit is a question to me, since back in the day this music was so popular. Scott Muni played the full Supper's Ready on WNEW in NY, though I could never get that station out where I lived.  If I had I would have gotten into Genesis much earlier.

ivan_2068 wrote: Overrated means that they recieve more crefit than they deserve, which I believe is false. If we were talking about a local or even National Radio/Magazine where people jusst go and vote, I may agree, because the average listener (Not trying to be despective but realistic) votes for the coolest musician or the one that is in the peak of popularity. But when you come to a specialized site (Not only  Prog' but also Rock, Jazz or even Punk), you find people that really cares for the genre, in the case of Prog most of us tend to over analyze the music, we lcarefully studu the influences, structures, instruments, musicians, tempos, etc). And the people in Prog Arcchives not only care about one band, we normally love a whole lot of bands. People here or in any respectable site, not only votes for a band on a list, we take time to review albums, to explain our arguments, so I believe Genesis or any top 100 band and album deserves what they get, the lurkers that come and give contradictory ratings usually don't exceed the 5%, so I believe in the results. If you add that not only here, but in Prog Archives, GEPT, Progressor and every site from the Progressive Rock Webring Genesis is well rated, well I start to think that you underrate Genesis. Iván

 

I understand that the great preference for Genesis is universal and even in the literature there has been a developing preference for Genesis over the last ten years. When I say that they are over rated I am saying that they are ganered more support than bands like Jethtro Tull, ELP Yes or Crimson when musically none of these bands is any better than any other band and again, are best understood as a whole. For us as ELP fans it is an insult to come to a site and see that people have underrated our band.  ELP in many ways defined the genre back in 1974, for better and worse. That should grant them a lasting place of influence in the annuls of prog rock.  To do otherwise is to rewrite history.

Works II was even worst, instead of picking up the pieces they took some leftover tracks and made an album worst than the previous, the credit was very small at this point, then they were forced to release another album to honour a contract for which they had already been paid, and they relased Love Beach in revenge, but the fan was the one that paid the bill.

They lost all the credit they had, and there was no excuse, people know that Genesis from >>

 

This is exactly what I am talking about. 

Firstly, you site all this rubbish as though it is fact.  You never say I think or in your opinion so don't get off on me because I have a differing opinion, which is exactly what you are doing and blaming me for doing.  You never respond to my posts that are insightful and interesting.  Only when I say Genesis is overrated, which I did not start and really is a trite thing to say but like I've said before, it gets people to repsond.  This was a battle that was here when I came and will be going on long after I have tired of it, which I have. In addition, in the last month I have listen to Selling England, Trick of the Tail and Nursery Cryme about five times, Foxtrot about 15 about times.  Get Em Out By Friday is my favorite prog track I have said that before; I always defend it. Does that sound like a person who really has any issue with Genesis, the band?

Secondly, Genesis for all of its greatness released Duke and the like.  They got rid of Steve Hackett who you would admit was a major part of the greatness of the band sound. Gabriel released So and it had such lovely ditties as Sledgehammer and Big Time, which were catered to us ad naseum for the better part of 1986. But Genesis gets a big pass on all this and we can pick on Emo, well everyone knows he's a big egomaniac anyway. Well, I am just here to say. I am tired of that, as well.